Ford Falcon to go front-wheel-drive?

[domstrama]

In a press conference in Melbourne yesterday, Ford Motor Co chief Alan Mulally would not rule out the possibility of Ford’s iconic Falcon switching drive layout. Speaking to journalists, he noted that Australians were “obsessed with rear-wheel-drive”. And your point is? But the real reason for the push to change, is the global realisation that it makes more economic and environmental sense to utilise front-wheel- and all-wheel-drive layouts.

“All-wheel-drives and front-wheel drives are pretty spectacular and they’re going to continue to get better”, Mulally told Drive.com.au. “We are aggressively transforming our product line to have more fuel-efficient small and medium sized cars and utilities. We’re doing that worldwide.
“The real focus to be successful long term is going to be that you have absolutely dynamite smaller vehicles to support worldwide [consumer demands].”
Mulally did offer hope that Ford Australia would be an engineering base for the global manufacturer, thereby allowing scope for input from Aussie designers. After all, he has been quoted as saying that the current Falcon is a “dynamite vehicle”, and that there is “going to be a significant market worldwide for the Falcon.”
Whether that is in rear-wheel-drive, or another platform is unclear at this stage.
“It will be driven by what the customer wants and values, and especially the fuel economy and the performance,” said Mulally.
What do you think? Is it time for the Falcon to switch drive layout?

[terrine]

Cant wait to get my 320 kilowatt front wheel drive FPV, hope its got 6 reverse gears

[HRT 1-2]

They'd want to do their home work before switching......ask Mitsubishi about large front wheel drive cars in this country!!

[Kashmir]

This would be a stupid decision if they decided to go front wheel drive.

[VE II]

Sorry to sound naive, but what is the benefits of rear wheel vs front wheel drive?
Im guessing that front wheel drive would cause problems when accelerating, particularly around a corner, or in the wet as your wheels are moving + recieving like 200+ Kw... So whats the advantage of it - how is it more fuel efficent - less energy lost (heat, movement) through the drive shaft down the middle of the car?
Any help would be greatly appreciated...

[monarocveightz]

Sorry to sound naive, but what is the benefits of rear wheel vs front wheel drive?
Im guessing that front wheel drive would cause problems when accelerating, particularly around a corner, or in the wet as your wheels are moving + recieving like 200+ Kw... So whats the advantage of it - how is it more fuel efficent - less energy lost (heat, movement) through the drive shaft down the middle of the car?
Any help would be greatly appreciated...

Torque steer would be a major factor....I wouldn't want to see a FWD V8! Probably would save power, as it would loose it's effectiveness going to the rears...so more power has to be sent down...using more fuel

They'd want to do their home work before switching......ask Mitsubishi about large front wheel drive cars in this country!!

I remember someone saying that at the Mitsu (or was it toyota) stand, there were a lot of people asking if the car was RWD....and walking away when they found it wasn't..

[1370]

Rear wheels drive cars have better mid-corner balance, put down the power better and have less issues with steering. Having said that, they are only better when the speeds are higher. For most low performance drivers, front wheel drives are far more predictable with their mild understeer characteristic. But most European and Japanese hatches I've driven of late handle better than the BA and the VY anyway. I haven't driven the latest Common or Falcadore yet...

Of the current breed of hot hatches, 300HP seems to be the limit to which the front end copes with before starting to create funky effects with the steering.

I'm not sure why there should be any drama with Ford going for a front drive set up for their family car range. It's not as if soccer moms flick their cars sideways through corners anyway.

[minh427]

If that gets carried over to V8 supercars, they would understeer like crazy like Glenn Seton and Nissan EXA days.

[Chev_350]

I wouldn't want to see a FWD V8!


Chevy used to do the Monte Carlo in FWD and it had a V8.

[brchi17]

The only Falcon that will be FWD will be a fully imported one!

Sounds to me like someone is trying to grab a headline as Ford Oz put theit case to Detroit in an effort to get the approval for the next 'new' model Falcon

[rayman]

I wouldn't want to see a FWD V8!

Well don't go here to see them. http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/?f=8c&f=cv&f=fwd

[monarocveightz]

Chevy used to do the Monte Carlo in FWD and it had a V8.


Ah....yes I'd forgotton the Monte Carlo was a FWD V8....

No wonder American cars don't handle:p:D

[lukey73]

Its interesting that he has come out with that as there is a big push in the USA to have rear wheel drive cars.

Given the technology these days i dont know why we cant have a large rear wheel drive sedan mased produced for world wide consumption. If Mulally wanted a case for large rear drive sedan to come from Oz why did they know a left hook version of the BA/BF/FG on the head yrs ok and make it RHD only?

The best thing that happend to GM was Lutz getting the VT made in LHD for global consumption, one would have thought the boffins at Ford might have learnt the same thing:rolleyes:

[spolyhronidis]

Ford Australia has wanted to build left hand drive falcons for years. Ford US won't let them. They don't want to risk losing sales of their US made large cars

[brchi17]

Ford Australia has wanted to build left hand drive falcons for years. Ford US won't let them. They don't want to risk losing sales of their US made large cars

sad but true, if ever there was a time for Ford to copy Holden now would be the time. For Ford Australia to survive they need an export program as I can't see them surviving (long term) by only building the Falcon, Territory and Focus for the domestic market

[barnart]

I am looking at buying a XR6 ute, talking to my mate at the local Ford dealer yesterday he stated that there will never be a new Falcon body shell designed or built in Australia. So this means that the current FG shell is the last Falcon designed and built here.

[XR8]

I am looking at buying a XR6 ute, talking to my mate at the local Ford dealer yesterday he stated that there will never be a new Falcon body shell designed or built in Australia. So this means that the current FG shell is the last Falcon designed and built here.

In the current climate that doesn't surprise me.
Given the new V6 lump that it's getting in 2010 they may as well stuff it completely.
Like the road warrior, Falcon will live only in our memories..........

Ed :)

[inter]

The only Falcon that will be FWD will be a fully imported one!

Sounds to me like someone is trying to grab a headline as Ford Oz put theit case to Detroit in an effort to get the approval for the next 'new' model Falcon


you took the words out of my mouth

[Graeme]

The best thing that happend to GM was Lutz getting the VT made in LHD for global consumption, one would have thought the boffins at Ford might have learnt the same thing:rolleyes:



Bob Lutz was still Vice Chairman at Chrysler at the time the VT Commodore was released.

A lot of Aussies probably don't recall a bloke named Bill Hamel, but he was running things at Holden until his retirement from GM in March 1997. Last year, Aussie journalist Angus MacKenzie published these comments for Motor Trend magazine in the USA :




" There's a lot of corporate pride tied up in being the world's biggest automaker. It says you're pretty damned good at doing what you do. But worrying about staying number one also can be a distraction you don't need. Especially for GM, which has been number one for so long that whole generations of employees-from senior execs to line workers-have come to regard it as the natural state of affairs: "Hey, we're GM. Of course we're number one." If you've never known anything but being number one, how do you cope with being number two?

Maybe GM ought to look at the near-death experience of its Holden subsidiary in Australia in the 1980s. In the late 1950s, Holden had 50 percent of the market (sound familiar?), but in 1983, after a bitter and expensive sales war, archrival Ford ended more than 30 years of Holden market leadership. Suddenly, number one was number two.

Holden still thought like number one, though. It had too many factories and too many people building too few cars. By 1986 its financial situation had become so bad a team was sent over from Detroit with a simple brief: Fix it or shut it down. "The difference between leaving and staying was $31 million," recalls Bill Hamel, a former Cadillac executive who was part of the team and stayed on to become Holden's boss in 1990. "That's loose change in this business."

GM poured the equivalent of $620 million into Holden-a staggering sum of money back in the early 1980s-to cancel its debts and put the business back on an operational footing. But the check came with strings attached: There were to be no more bailouts, no more money from the head office to fund new models. Holden was on its own, with its back to the wall and staring over its toes into an abyss.

The shock transformed Holden. To survive it became focused on doing more with less, on finding clever ways to build better cars. And it realized that being number one was less important than simply being: "I'd rather concentrate on being the number one company in terms of profitability than being the number one in terms of sales," Hamel said during his stint as Holden's boss.

Bill Hamel's leaner, smarter Holden laid the foundation for the product development program that has given GM the low-cost, versatile Zeta rear-drive platform that'll underpin the new Chevy Camaro, Pontiac G8, Chevy Impala, and possibly a Buick or two over the rest of the decade; a platform that'll give GM a whole new range of cars Toyota simply won't do.

You see, Holden learned that to really think like number one, sometimes you have to be number two. And that's why being overtaken by Toyota in 2007 could actually be the best thing to happen to GM in 80 years. "


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[mick78]

A FWD Falcon? Why not just re-badge the Mondeo? I love the falcon - always have and always will but I do think that it is doomed. I hope it gets another two years to get to it's 50th anniversary.

Mind you if the Falcon falls over my guess is the Commodore will only be two or three years from being taken out and shot as well.

Maybe Mullaley is softening us up for a rebaged Mondeo.

[beast]

FWD Falcon. Hope you own a tyre shop as its gonna chew the fronts out real quick.

[BILLFORD1]

I won't be buying a bugger if it's put together bass-ackwards !! :D

[sleepy]

The writing is on the wall even less components made in australia maybe the falcon will become fully imported.

[Patterson]

It'll be a shame if it happens. Big Aussie sedans are RWD, end of story.

I would believe it if they go 4WD but not FWD only. It would be a crazy move.

Although, I have a mate from Serbia and another from Taiwan who say that the only kind of car thats any good in ice and snow is front wheel drive(or 4WD). With global warming we should be going the other way.

[MarkHM]

the real reason for the push to change,

not so much a push to change as a pull to change:D

[HRT 1-2]

Chevy used to do the Monte Carlo in FWD and it had a V8.

A mate of mine moved to the US to live and I remember him commenting about the lack of RWD V8s in the US and how, at the time, there was a lot of interest in Aussie V8's because they were still RWD. When asked why this was the case in the US, as Patterson pointed out, the weather conditions have dictated the market in the US, with FWD drive being preferred with its better performance in snow & ice with power being delivered via the steering wheels. This obviously wouldn't be a driving factor here but, economy of scale would drive it!!

A FWD Falcon? Why not just re-badge the Mondeo? I love the falcon - always have and always will but I do think that it is doomed. I hope it gets another two years to get to it's 50th anniversary.

Mind you if the Falcon falls over my guess is the Commodore will only be two or three years from being taken out and shot as well.

Maybe Mullaley is softening us up for a rebaged Mondeo.

Whether the Commodore falls over would depend on how the export market is performing because it seems plainly obvious that the future of GMH is not the Aussie market!! Perfect example is the long wheel base models, if it wasn't for the export market the Statesman & Caprice would have gone the same way as the LTD & Fairlane!! I can't remember the exact figures but, doesn't Aust only account for about 20%-30% of long wheel base sales? Hence why they built them before the wagon!!

[Richard Poole]

I believe it also have some thing to do with the 'CAFE' regulations (Combined Average Fuel Efficiency, please correct if this is wrong) in the states where the entire range of each manufacturer needs to be averaged out and fit under a set limit. Front wheel drive cars get an extra allowance over rear wheel drivers. Can't remember why. Read this in Motor or Wheels mags.

[mick78]

Whether the Commodore falls over would depend on how the export market is performing because it seems plainly obvious that the future of GMH is not the Aussie market!! Perfect example is the long wheel base models, if it wasn't for the export market the Statesman & Caprice would have gone the same way as the LTD & Fairlane!! I can't remember the exact figures but, doesn't Aust only account for about 20%-30% of long wheel base sales? Hence why they built them before the wagon!!

You wonder then if sales of the short wheel base platform slide, whether they would then sell the Commodore as a LWB only car. I hope they both survive (Falcon and Commodore) but if the Falcon in killed off could the market sustain only one big RWD six? I'm only speculating and showing my ignorance perhaps, but I just wonder how the big cars are going to endure.

[barnart]

I feel myself that only way Holden will keep building RWD cars here is if Ford pulls out, otherwise they will both go out of business as there is not enough sales for 2 RWD makers.

[moffatxc]

Barnart I think you are correct

[bimmerboy]

I think the real reason that Ford is making these suggestions is that simply don't have the money to develop a new rear-drive platform. The rest is just "spin".

There will always be demand around the world for large cars and SUV's, and by necessity these will need to be rear-driven. Can you imagine the next-gen Mustang being front-driven !!

The trick to the survival of the big car is making them more fuel efficient - which means getting smart about the engine technology and manufacturing processes used. Speaking from where I sit, BMW is now getting remarkable power and efficiency out of it's engines like the twin-turbo six-cylinder, and the new twin-turbo V8.

But as I said both Ford and GM don't have the $$ to make these investments / developments - and that's the biggest hurdle for the survival fo the big rear-driven Aussie sedan.

[mick78]

I feel myself that only way Holden will keep building RWD cars here is if Ford pulls out, otherwise they will both go out of business as there is not enough sales for 2 RWD makers.

Holden need a market to sell their big cars. If their competitor gives up it will be very difficult to sell a big watermelon when everybody else is buying apples. If the Commodore is the only big RWD car left, the media will very quickly start to label it a dinosaur. Don't get me wrong, I love and have owned both Falcs and 'Dores but I think that their fuel costs will kill them. Smaller (like Mondeo, Accord, Camry and Mazda 6) cars don't give away very much inside in room and use heaps less fuel.

[vr-x3500]

So not only will it chew through pads and rotors but front tyres as well ;) Seriously though, if it did go to FWD the average punter under normal driving wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but get a bit carried away with the right foot and it's a different story.

[Leigh]

Can you imagine the next-gen Mustang being front-driven !!


Don't laugh too loud, the 1989 fwd Probe was originally intended to have Mustang badges:(

Agree with others that there will always be a market for large rwd cars, but how big will that market be?

Both Ford Australia and Holden have had great success being in a "niche" market called Australia for a long time...that market is no longer a niche, so either they need to change their business to target a new niche, or they must try to compete with other manufacturers who make cars in places where labour costs are cheaper!

Both Ford and GM in the US are doing the latter.

Toyota Australia are entering new niches, as IMO Holden also are.

So where does that leave Ford Australia?

[mick78]

But what niches are Holden entering? Granted they have the large RWD platform for export, plus a few SWB Pontiac branded Commodores - but is this the way of the future? Maybe if they get their hybrid program up and running it may.

Ford Australia needs an export program. It won't be Falcons. A shame because it is a far better car than some of the Ford America junk - Crown Victoria anyone?

It will be up to the Focus in 2011. A nice little car of course but still a 2 litre FWD. My guess is if it sells well here - and it deserves to as it (and the Astra) are better cars than the Corolla it will become Ford Australia's main game.

[david5]

Soon to be like Nissan, Mitsubishi, just another importer.

Cheers David

[spolyhronidis]

well it's what senator John Button wanted when he introduced the Button plan. worked a bit too well because he only wanted to get rid of 2 manufacturers. looks like we may lose at least 1 more (hopefully not).

[lukey73]

well it's what senator John Button wanted when he introduced the Button plan. worked a bit too well because he only wanted to get rid of 2 manufacturers. looks like we may lose at least 1 more (hopefully not).


That plan came in 24 yrs ago, im sorry but if Ford cant have come up with a viable program to keep building Falcons in Oz then to bad.

Holden and Toyota have adapted to build cars that work outside of OZ, have a design / engineering centre's that work for the world. What have Ford done in that time? Well they took a crook USA design forced in the Australian public and paid the price, then then spent 600million on a car that lasted for 6 yrs before they spent another 800million on a car which will be made redundant within 4-6 yrs due to the Dearborn crew not looking outside of there F250's at there global operation.

[spolyhronidis]

That plan came in 24 yrs ago, im sorry but if Ford cant have come up with a viable program to keep building Falcons in Oz then to bad.

Holden and Toyota have adapted to build cars that work outside of OZ, have a design / engineering centre's that work for the world. What have Ford done in that time? Well they took a crook USA design forced in the Australian public and paid the price, then then spent 600million on a car that lasted for 6 yrs before they spent another 800million on a car which will be made redundant within 4-6 yrs due to the Dearborn crew not looking outside of there F250's at there global operation.
As i've said before, Ford Aus would have loved to build a LHD Falcon to export to the world. If Ford US had allowed it, then things may have been different.

[lukey73]

As i've said before, Ford Aus would have loved to build a LHD Falcon to export to the world. If Ford US had allowed it, then things may have been different.


Fully aware of that hence my reference to the F250 which unitl recently has been Fords money maker, like most things fronm the US they think they know it all and make the best things till it all comes crashing down around ther ears.

I have dealt with to many americans over the years and the majority of them are that way, seems to be the minority who arent:rolleyes:

[HRT 1-2]

IMO, Ford Aust & probably Ford in general have had a long history of p*** poor marketing decisions, dropping the V8 from the line-up in the 80's, pretty much abandoning racing and then the AU have hurt them long term!!

Why should things change now!!:rolleyes:

[Highlander]

.GM in the US had its Big Block Oldsmobile Toronado FWD ,FWD is an easier production model for assembly lines so the reduced manufacturing costs of the Falcon would make it competitive.

[VE II]

Just read that globally, Ford dropped to 4th as the worlds biggest car seller, GM 2nd, Toyota 1st... over taken by.... Volkswagon!!! Must be a huge seller in Europe im guessing... but still a big big shock
http://www.wheelsmag.com.au/News/VW+overtakes+Ford .html

[Kashmir]

Toyota overtakes GM............ sad year in the automotive world:(

[monarocveightz]

Just read that globally, Ford dropped to 4th as the worlds biggest car seller, GM 2nd, Toyota 1st... over taken by.... Volkswagon!!! Must be a huge seller in Europe im guessing... but still a big big shock
http://www.wheelsmag.com.au/News/VW+overtakes+Ford .html


Volkswagen are huge in Europe...

They have many brands under their umbrella, Skoda, Seat, Bugatti etc

I personally think the current range of VW cars are very nice.

[monarocveightz]

Volkswagen are huge in Europe...

They have many brands under their umbrella, Skoda, Seat, Bugatti etc

I personally think the current range of VW cars are very nice.


VW AG website says they own

Volkswagen
Skoda
Seat
Audi
Bentley
Bugatti
Lamborghini

[GSXR1]

I wouldn't have thought Bugatti or Lamborghini would add much volume of unit sales to the total, but every little bit helps I guess....;)

[monarocveightz]

I wouldn't have thought Bugatti or Lamborghini would add much volume of unit sales to the total, but every little bit helps I guess....;)

I know that Bugatti's were built at a loss (according to top gear)....but I'd say they'd make money out of Lambo...

Audi would be a big money maker....from what I hear they're doing well in the US.

[spolyhronidis]

I know that Bugatti's were built at a loss (according to top gear)....but I'd say they'd make money out of Lambo...

Audi would be a big money maker....from what I hear they're doing well in the US.
rankings aren't being based on profit, but on sales. Bugatti & Lambo don't add much to overall sales. Skoda & Seat do along with VW & Audi of course.

[GSXR1]

I was talking more number of cars shifted through the showroom floor, rather than dollars - I reckon the first three brands you list (VW, Seat & Skoda) would account for the majority of sales across the group

[monarocveightz]

rankings aren't being based on profit, but on sales. Bugatti & Lambo don't add much to overall sales. Skoda & Seat do along with VW & Audi of course.

I was talking more number of cars shifted through the showroom floor, rather than dollars - I reckon the first three brands you list (VW, Seat & Skoda) would account for the majority of sales across the group


Whoops...sorry..I'll read things properly next time:o

[david5]

Toyota overtakes GM............ sad year in the automotive world:(

Happened quite a while ago.

Cheers David

[rex555]

FWDs are easier to 'package' the entire engine, gearbox etc can be assembled elsewhere and dropped into the car on the assembly line saving time in production. Also a FWD is cheaper to design and build since you don't have to worry about a transmission tunnel or rear diff.

Saab said a few years ago that anything more than 170kW through the front wheels is 'undesirable' due to torque steer. The 9-5 Aero was renowned for swapping lanes under acceleration with its 195kW. The only way anyone is keeping these car on the road is by electronic wizardry which means that the engineers can get lazy and not design cars that work so well but can rely on traction control programs to keep the car on the road. To me, traction control is just an engineer saying that they hadn't bothered to design the car properly to not need it.

And a FWD Falcon IS a Mondeo and the Aussie public won't be fooled into buying it, IMHO.

[david5]

FWDs are easier to 'package' the entire engine, gearbox etc can be assembled elsewhere and dropped into the car on the assembly line saving time in production. Also a FWD is cheaper to design and build since you don't have to worry about a transmission tunnel or rear diff.

Saab said a few years ago that anything more than 170kW through the front wheels is 'undesirable' due to torque steer. The 9-5 Aero was renowned for swapping lanes under acceleration with its 195kW. The only way anyone is keeping these car on the road is by electronic wizardry which means that the engineers can get lazy and not design cars that work so well but can rely on traction control programs to keep the car on the road. To me, traction control is just an engineer saying that they hadn't bothered to design the car properly to not need it.

And a FWD Falcon IS a Mondeo and the Aussie public won't be fooled into buying it, IMHO.

Check the latest Top Gear mag, new RS Focus has a new suspension part called "Revoknuckle" ,mounts on top of the strut & aids the car putting up to 220kw to the ground, although there not saying the Focus will produce that much poke.

Cheers David

[Leigh]

And a FWD Falcon IS a Mondeo and the Aussie public won't be fooled into buying it, IMHO.

Given that I've seen heaps more new model Mondeo's on the roads around Melbourne than FG's...and they've been selling for about the same time period, I wouldn't be so sure of your statement...

What are others seeing? More new Mondeos or more FG's?

[david5]

Hard to tell a FG from a BF there that bland. Do see a lot of Mondeos though.

Cheers David

[HRT 1-2]

Given that I've seen heaps more new model Mondeo's on the roads around Melbourne than FG's...and they've been selling for about the same time period, I wouldn't be so sure of your statement...

What are others seeing? More new Mondeos or more FG's?

I didn't even think the FG was released yet!!;):jester:

[Chev_350]

What are others seeing? More new Mondeos or more FG's?

Sedan wise I have seen more Mondeos. But I have seen quiet a few FG utes.

Go the front wheel drive ute!

[wayno]

Must admit I'm noticing a lot of Mondeos in the Melbourne CBD compared to Falcons.

[mick78]

I am not really noticing all those Mondeos on the VFACS figures. I am noticing a few FG Falcons though.

[brchi17]

Must admit I'm noticing a lot of Mondeos in the Melbourne CBD compared to Falcons.

and how big are they :eek: I passed one today on the hwy and it seemed really long, they must be close to being the same size, however a much better looking car in my opinion, now if they were RWD I think they would be a real hit!

[lukey73]

Leigh the Mondeo was released before the FG, in Brissy i see about the same mix of each. The main Mondeo i see up here is the TDi version, given the price difference between petrol and diesel im surprised by that.