Ford Xa Gt Ho Phase 1v Works Cars

[pkdiorama]

So many lies and half truths have been written about these 3 cars, its time to set the records straight. Anyone is welcome to prove me wrong, Im happy to hear any information you wish to share.. so here are my findings.
XA-1
1972 FALCON GT-HO PHASE 1V WORKS RACE CAR
Sido No. 816003 ..JG33MC78489K.. Delivered to FSV Lot 6
Mahoneys Rd. Monday 12th June 1972. Sold to Mcleod Ford .
Current owner Paul Carthew. This car was ear marked for Allan Moffat.. In all B&W Photos it is least developed car , both in early photos showing 3 cars , and latter photos showing only 2 cars.. FACT.

[pkdiorama]

XA-2
Sido No.809891....JG33MC76429K Delivered to FSV Lot 6
Wednesday 10th May 1972 . This car was first to arrive at Lot6 in pic showing 3 cars it is in the middle marked with 2 and has box marked XA-2 next to it . In photo showing only 2 cars it is reffered to as Fred Gibsons car.. Fact.. This car was sold to Keith Goodall to be rallied . Currant owner David Bowden..

[Maximus]

Was there anyone doubting this?

www.gtho4.com

[pkdiorama]

XA-3
Sido No ..816002 ....JG33MC78488K Delivered to FSV Lot 6
Monday 12th June 1972..This car can be seen marked as 3 also has box next to it marked XA-3 . This car was first completed and alot of testing done on it so that what worked on it would be done on other 2 cars not yet completed. It was turned into rally car for Bruce Hodgson. Ford gave the car to Bruce, who sold it latter, and we know it was wrecked in accident...

[Maq]

How is the first car delivered called XA 2. Wouldn't it be XA1.They can not be named just because of the boxes beside them.

[pkdiorama]

Was there anyone doubting this?

www.gtho4.com (http://www.gtho4.com)
Hmm looks like Bowden got his car marked up to be Allan Moffats ? This is not how it left FSV Lot6 as he claims. it left with no signage on it with rally suspension , street exhaust system not side pipes and no pan hard rod. .. thats the point i trying to disscuss..

[pkdiorama]

How is the first car delivered called XA 2. Wouldn't it be XA1.They can not be named just because of the boxes beside them.
Fair point . Then why the numbers on the rear quarter of car ? why put a number on car ? and matching box next to it??

[ratster70]

PK im certainly no expert in this matter at all but i dont see you providing any proof to your statements mate. You keep stating clearly in this picture and that picture so where are these pictures you speak of. What proof do you have that is not how the bowdens car left lot 6 at the moment its just your hear say and for all we know you could be jo bloggs trying to stir up trouble. Not having a go at you at all so please dont take it that way just my observation on your posts so far;)

[pkdiorama]

Come on through some good questions at me , Ive yet to get into some real true facts ...

[Maq]

Hmm looks like Bowden got his car marked up to be Allan Moffats ? This is not how it left FSV Lot6 as he claims. it left with no signage on it with rally suspension , street exhaust system not side pipes and no pan hard rod. .. thats the point i trying to disscuss..

I am positive Bowdens had a panard rod when I saw it. In all seriousness who really cars what car is what. I am not sure if the car earmarked for Moff would have been the least developed. One would think that would try to get it sorted quick smart for bathurst and get testing done for improvements
Who knows, whoe cares. One is not more valuable than the other, allthough I would rather the first one delivered

PS the vid I saw of Carthews car had decals aswell when the Luffs took it for a spin.

[gab73]

I am positive Bowdens had a panard rod when I saw it. In all seriousness who really cars what car is what. I am not sure if the car earmarked for Moff would have been the least developed. One would think that would try to get it sorted quick smart for bathurst and get testing done for improvements
Who knows, whoe cares. One is not more valuable than the other, allthough I would rather the first one deliveredI'd say the road car is the most valueable, the only one with a phase IV compliance plate.

[Maq]

Good call. that is a pretty nice icing on a very tasty cake.PK is arguing about between Bowden and Paul having what car

[ratster70]

I'd say the road car is the most valueable, the only one with a phase IV compliance plate.


Depends on which way you want to look at it gab yes i agree a road car with compliance for the car enthusiast yes but on the other hand the other 3 were built with the intention of racing and where the myth really began in all honesty the cars that never existed no plates etc but i agree with Maq at least they are still around for us to enjoy;)

[pkdiorama]

PK im certainly no expert in this matter at all but i dont see you providing any proof to your statements mate. You keep stating clearly in this picture and that picture so where are these pictures you speak of. What proof do you have that is not how the bowdens car left lot 6 at the moment its just your hear say and for all we know you could be jo bloggs trying to stir up trouble. Not having a go at you at all so please dont take it that way just my observation on your posts so far;)
No worries . Could someone thats got copy of issue 5 of AMC Put up a pic of the 3 phase 4s , i still dont know how, then i can point out all the facts.. I talk to the actual people who built these cars at FSV Lot6 . I done my research.not like some lazy editors..

[Maq]

Thinking of it like that, not sure on value, but I would rather the racer (one that should have anyway)

[pkdiorama]

I am positive Bowdens had a panard rod when I saw it. In all seriousness who really cars what car is what. I am not sure if the car earmarked for Moff would have been the least developed. One would think that would try to get it sorted quick smart for bathurst and get testing done for improvements
Who knows, whoe cares. One is not more valuable than the other, allthough I would rather the first one delivered

PS the vid I saw of Carthews car had decals aswell when the Luffs took it for a spin.
Adelaide August 27 th was the first race that the phase4 would have raced in not Barthurst. Panhard could not be fitted with street system on . gee i wish some people would read first ..

[Maq]

Hmm looks like Bowden got his car marked up to be Allan Moffats ? This is not how it left FSV Lot6 as he claims. it left with no signage on it with rally suspension , street exhaust system not side pipes and no pan hard rod. .. thats the point i trying to disscuss..

Bowdens car has a panard rod and side exhaust. Do you think he butchered a pricless car, or did you miss type?

[gab73]

No worries . Could someone thats got copy of issue 5 of AMC Put up a pic of the 3 phase 4s , i still dont know how, then i can point out all the facts.. I talk to the actual people who built these cars at FSV Lot6 . I done my research.not like some lazy editors..The research of the editors leaves a lot to be desired with there research on some topics (i am not referring to the Phase IV article).

[pkdiorama]

Bowdens car has a panard rod and side exhaust. Do you think he butchered a pricless car, or did you miss type?
David rang me told me the original 36 gal tank he wrecked ..his car has had a hard life by differant owners, drag raced and engine destroyed twice dont you have any copies of old mags super ford etc all the facts are there, dont just go by what bull**** AMC prints ! Fact is Davids car has been butchered. Have you talked to Bruce Hodgson Collin Russell John Mepstead Ill leave John Wynne out of it as David Bowden is his best mate...

[zavo]

Hi All, long time forum reader first time replyer, just a word of warning I am a good mate of PK's and believe me this bloke has well and truley has done his homework. All the research which he has undertaken is phenominal he can just about publish a book on the amount of info he has obtaind on lot 6 and the development of the Phase 4.

But I say make it a challenge and try to stump PK.


Unleash the HOUNDS.................:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Cheers
Zavo

[pkdiorama]

if anyone has copy of 1972 sports car world HOW THEY BUILT THE HO .page 28 shows photo of mechanic working in XA-2 you can see graviner fire extinguisher also remote side mirror lever, 2 items fitted to only one car David Bowdens. if you havent got copy of this mag stiff **** as your not interested in this subject so move on ! If you have got a copy i will go on with explaining . Both cars in this pic are refered to by Howard Marsden as Fred Gibsons XA-2 and Allan Moffats XA-1 , you can clearly see in photo XA-1 is least developed car , note mud markings on bottom rear behind wheel on black trim.Now look at pic in AMC ISSUE 5 Page 50 showing 3 cars note least developed car in back ground same mud markings ....same car.

[Maq]

I hope this helps. Great reading on the links
Under a pic in the link posted there is a pic of the three cars and under it reads
car 3
Owned by Rod Mann (time of print)
Car 2
is dead
Car 1 (unnumbered) had least work done. Owned by John H (at time of print)

A bit further down about the Mann car it reads "when Bowden owned it he removed the stickers but later put them back on"
Bowden must have owned it(or another ??) before and got one back.

[pkdiorama]

Hi All, long time forum reader first time replyer, just a word of warning I am a good mate of PK's and believe me this bloke has well and truley has done his homework. All the research which he has undertaken is phenominal he can just about publish a book on the amount of info he has obtaind on lot 6 and the development of the Phase 4.

But I say make it a challenge and try to stump PK.


Unleash the HOUNDS.................:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Cheers
Zavothanks mate i thought you might stump me putting up with all bull**** i tell you !!

[Maq]

if you havent got copy of this mag stiff **** as your not interested in this subject so move on ! .

That comment makes no sense at all. Does one have to have it to be interested.You will not last around here being a jerk. No one is denying what you know and what you have been told. It is called a disscussion.

[pkdiorama]

I hope this helps. Great reading on the links
Under a pic in the link posted there is a pic of the three cars and under it reads
car 3
Owned by Rod Mann (time of print)
Car 2
is dead
Car 1 (unnumbered) had least work done. Owned by John H (at time of print)

A bit further down about the Mann car it reads "when Bowden owned it he removed the stickers but later put them back on"
Bowden must have owned it(or another ??) before and got one back.
Thats what i dispute car3 is not Bowdens it was car 2 all the facts are in the old mags ..Wheels 1972 August issue Phase4 GT-HO Worlds Fastest four -door. Sports Car World 1972 September issue how they built the HO, you should be able to get all the facts in them. Bowden owned his car 3 times, funny in early photo of his car 1987 the stickers on his car had no moffat onit ?

[group C]

rod mann is a customer of ours and has some interesting thoughts on the subject also some great information about the phase iv:)
diorama please share your knowledge with us,but the way I'm reading your posts it seems as if your trying to start a p##sing contest maybe i have miss interpreted them maybe not,we are all a friendly bunch all share various knowledge of subjects and try not to be know it all smart a##es.
Again i may be miss reading these posts.
Was reading a link to a ford forum that has tonnes of research/facts of these cars was very interesting reading i will See if i can find the link.
Please share your knowledge on the matter with out the name calling.

[Maq]

Do you know when the articles in the link were published. Do they look familiar to you as they do not have dates. It says car 2 dead :confused:
If you can work out the scanner I would luv to read the articles you have.(email?) They would be quite cool to read.
Nuf for tonight. Chow for now
Cheers

[pkdiorama]

That comment makes no sense at all. Does one have to have it to be interested.You will not last around here being a jerk. No one is denying what you know and what you have been told. It is called a disscussion.
well then disscuss it . no need for name calling, facts are facts if you to lazy to do your research and you dont know what your talking about..well comments like who cares whos car is whos shouldnt bother replying .

[pkdiorama]

Do you know when the articles in the link were published. Do they look familiar to you as they do not have dates. It says car 2 dead :confused:
If you can work out the scanner I would luv to read the articles you have.(email?) They would be quite cool to read.
Nuf for tonight. Chow for now
Cheers
Quite happy to send photo copies pm me your address

[pkdiorama]

rod mann is a customer of ours and has some interesting thoughts on the subject also some great information about the phase iv:)
diorama please share your knowledge with us,but the way I'm reading your posts it seems as if your trying to start a p##sing contest maybe i have miss interpreted them maybe not,we are all a friendly bunch all share various knowledge of subjects and try not to be know it all smart a##es.
Again i may be miss reading these posts.
Was reading a link to a ford forum that has tonnes of research/facts of these cars was very interesting reading i will See if i can find the link.
Please share your knowledge on the matter with out the name calling.
sorry if it sounded like i was rude but typing frustrates me as too slow. also frustrates me not to be able to show pics that have all proof in them , will slow down with replies and think what im wanting to say

[XA Craig]

here's my contribution to the discussion ;)

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/5111/skunkworks 2.jpg (http://img341.imageshack.us/i/skunkworks2.jpg/)


http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/6821/skunkworks1. jpg (http://img13.imageshack.us/i/skunkworks1.jpg/)

Note the modified XY 36 Gallon tank, ready to be installed

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/3466/phase4ca.j pg (http://img375.imageshack.us/i/phase4ca.jpg/)

[pkdiorama]

thanks XA will reply tomorrow in detail, please note mud marking on least developed car in pic top with 3 cars init. on bottom on black trim behind wheel , this pic taken shortly after cars 1&3 arrived at Lot6 June 12th . note bottom pic with only 2 cars init least developed car is now in position where car 3 was. note same mud marking on car ,, this is now owned by Paul Carthew . this pic was taken last week of June within days of the Phase 4 being axed.. July 1st. Cheers pk.

[Armageddon]

rod mann is a customer of ours and has some interesting thoughts on the subject also some great information about the phase iv:)


I'll back you up on that, Rod is my step Dad and we have had many chats about his Phase 4, from my memory he got it of Keith from Townsville and undid all the mods done before this to put it back to how it left the Factory, he talks about this in the History of the GT DVD, when they filmed that piece they where actually pulled over by the Police and questioned as to what they where doing with a car with straight through side exit exhausts on the road! Once it was explaind to the boys in Blue and that they where filming they decided to stick around and watch!

I can try and find out any information on this car that anyone may want.

[ratster70]

sorry if it sounded like i was rude but typing frustrates me as too slow. also frustrates me not to be able to show pics that have all proof in them , will slow down with replies and think what im wanting to say


Yeah that would be great PK if you can do that as i agree with group c sometimes the posts seem a bit narky hence Maq's comments and yes while not really knowing much about this matter to be an expert doesnt mean people on here dont want to know. Im always open to hearing peoples opinions and collated info as its the only way to learn about these things. while there are a couple of bad eggs you will find almost everyone on this forum is very friendly and open to others views ;) i look forward to hearing and seeing what you have to say and i to would love to see what you have so feel free to email me anything about please to
crewman2004@bigpond.com.au

[Maximus]

have a read here.

http://www.gtho4.com/fouronthefloor/fouronthefloor-archive.html

I am sure NEDWOB will be thru soon....

[group C]

This is the link i was referring to its got some interesting info in there just have to wade through some crap to find it.:)
It is more about the green phase 4 that was road registered but interesting all the same.

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread ... ge=1&pp=30 (http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=112 84486&page=1&pp=30)

[pkdiorama]

have a read here.

http://www.gtho4.com/fouronthefloor/fouronthefloor-archive.html

I am sure NEDWOB will be thru soon....
Thanks Maximus you can see how Bowden states that his car left lot6 with race signage on, This is a lie the pic in B&W is how it left lot6 but Keith did remove roll cage, also you can see early pic colour no moffat on front side guard.May be someone can find pic of mechanic laying inside car 2 that shows fire extingher and remote side mirror lever on drivers door.

[My Element]

why doesnt someone ask the guy in the photo or the guy that took the pic to set the record straight. Surely Moffat would know too.

[pkdiorama]

Sorry about rudeness , I get too passionate about this subject, I should have started by explaining who and what i do , so Ill start again politely. I build Workshop dioramas for those not familar with my work go to diorama thread in this forum go to page 173 -174 -140. Also explain who is who at FSV Lot6 Mahoneys rd . These fellows worked on the actual Phase 4 Works cars. John Sheppard who helped me with a couple of my projects ( sheppo built Brocks A9Xs and other famous race cars) gave me Colin Russells phone number . Colin took over as cheif engine builder at lot6 mid June 1972, before that he worked on other parts of cars. He built 1973 XA hard-top engine that won Bathurst. Colin then gave me phone No of John Wynne who was workshop supervisor at lot6 , John was a wealth of information as i planned to build a section of lot6 , in particular the east wall that can be seen in all early photos with cars being worked on. John has done detailed floor plans , what equipment etc i can even tell you how many toilets in the place.. Colour of brick wall , what was in green room.. The place was not nicknamed the skunk works as stated in DVD the history of GT.In all about 6 years talking to John has given me an idea of how things looked and worked in the place, sadly Johns health not the best and memory not as good as few years ago. john passed on John Mepsteads phone No .. JM was chief engine builder till mid June 1972 when Colin took over, JM is great he is really full of info and no bull. When i asked him about Bowdens comment that his rods had XA-1 marked on them as told in AMC story on Phase 4. answer no why would you mark a balanced & shot peened Rod , only mark on them was 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 so you knew which rod went into which cylinder, Colin gave the same answer.. more next time cheers PK.

[pkdiorama]

why doesnt someone ask the guy in the photo or the guy that took the pic to set the record straight. Surely Moffat would know too.
no Allan never seen the Phase4s, Guy in pic white shirt jeans is Graehme Stewart auto electrican contractor, A real wizz on race cars still works on V8 supercars, trouble is too many years have past , 38 years is a long time , some have good memories others it was just a job. Try asking about the 4 bolt blocks and you get stone silence, i dont even ask any more, some things will stay a secret,..cheers PK.

[group C]

well pk that's a better start to this subject,I'm glad you took my criticism the right way and look forward to reading more about this subject,as there is plenty of myths an innuendo about it.
I also realize that memories fail alot of people(including me:D)I also hope that the link i provided helps some or maybe you can shed some more light on it also...

[My Element]

no Allan never seen the Phase4s, Guy in pic white shirt jeans is Graehme Stewart auto electrican contractor, A real wizz on race cars still works on V8 supercars, trouble is too many years have past , 38 years is a long time , some have good memories others it was just a job. Try asking about the 4 bolt blocks and you get stone silence, i dont even ask any more, some things will stay a secret,..cheers PK.


yeah ive got the muscle car mag with those pics in it, i was born in 79, so i dont now much, only what ive read.

[malscar]

Thanks Maximus you can see how Bowden states that his car left lot 6 with race signage on, This is a lie the pic in B&W is how it left lot 6 but Keith did remove roll cage, also you can see early pic colour no moffat on front side guard.


Is it a lie, or was he misinformed? Note it is stated that Keith Goodall took the siganage off. That info would have most likely come from Keith.

[Footy]

PK,What exactly are you trying to achieve?,to me it appears that you have a vendetta against the Bowdens,Whom are at the very least are trying their best to preserve some of the finest of Australia's motoring icons,I don't know these guys,but will go in to bat for them.
Anyone that has the foresight,courage, to invest,(sink) their own money into a venture should at the very least applauded for their efforts,they like the rest of us can only go by information provided, and as years go by get distorted.Wether it is number 1 ,2.3.wether its been modified,really,they have what they have.And we dont..:D

[gab73]

PK,What exactly are you trying to achieve?,to me it appears that you have a vendetta against the Bowdens,Whom are at the very least are trying their best to preserve some of the finest of Australia's motoring icons,I don't know these guys,but will go in to bat for them.
Anyone that has the foresight,courage, to invest,(sink) their own money into a venture should at the very least applauded for their efforts,they like the rest of us can only go by information provided, and as years go by get distorted.Wether it is number 1 ,2.3.wether its been modified,really,they have what they have.And we dont..:D
If someone has valid information to share what's the issue?? If this information leads to identifying the real identity of a car this can only be a good thing & should be supported by all. One dedicated enthusiast/collector who sunk a lot of his own money into race vehicles had the real identity of one of his race cars identified via forums on the net. 05/25 anyone??

[Footy]

05/25 .I saw the real one at a pizza shop just around the corner.:D

[AmonFan]

One dedicated enthusiast/collector who sunk a lot of his own money into race vehicles had the real identity of one of his race cars identified via forums on the net. 05/25 anyone??

It was always known, it just took the forums to make people see the truth ;)

[pkdiorama]

Thanks gab73 its people like you that i like to explain my findings , but come up against a brick wall BOWDEN basher coments dont help, i not gaining anything by telling the facts ive come up with. if anything ive cut my own throat by giving this info i wont be welcomed to view Bowdens collection which he extended to me when he rang me one Saturday to disscuss my findings of mud markings on XA-1, We had a great chat, i have no bad feelings towards David, and agree with all comments hes done a fantastic job putting a priceless collection together, my aim is to get the truth on the Phase 4s, if AMC had of done a better job by getting previous owners comments like Roy editor of street fords did with his story on street Phase4, and for put Paul Carthewthose that think im lieying about talking to the mechanics that worked at FSVlot6 , give Roy a ring or send e-mail he willback me up as i passed on thier phone numbers with thier permisson to Roy .

[pkdiorama]

Stuffed up last bit ..should of read for people that think im lying about talking to FSV lot6 mechanics .... anyway i think im on wrong forum , been on that ford forum i think these are the fellows to disscuss my findings with as im going around in circles here just trying to defend my self .. Good luck CHEERS PK.

[My Element]

Stuffed up last bit ..should of read for people that think im lying about talking to FSV lot6 mechanics .... anyway i think im on wrong forum , been on that ford forum i think these are the fellows to disscuss my findings with as im going around in circles here just trying to defend my self .. Good luck CHEERS PK.

im enjoying learning about this stuff, keep it up

[Maximus]

Peter, People here like the information you are giving but if you are after a **** fight on the truths then I think the Ford Forums may suit as people here may not give a crap.

Bring on more of your dioramas I reckon and less of this sort of stuff.

[singer]

Stuffed up last bit ..should of read for people that think im lying about talking to FSV lot6 mechanics .... anyway i think im on wrong forum , been on that ford forum i think these are the fellows to disscuss my findings with as im going around in circles here just trying to defend my self .. Good luck CHEERS PK.

PK,

Please keep the info coming. I love it all.

As has been said before memories fade & sometimes we remember what we believe.

For example, The Bathurst Cortina's. I've spoken to the Fox at length about these Cars & his recollections (& vast archive of Motor Racing material) differ from the other builders of the era.

I feel sure that the info you've given has enlightened a few of us, here.

Cheers :)

[HDT337]

I think we have to remember that this is a model car forum, I too love reading/learning about some of the history of our early motoring heritage, but sometimes we can go over board....

Maybe this could go in the off topic section.

HDT337

[Nick Short]

OK, let's have a MODEL of the plain red Phase IV - I'd buy one.

There you go, back on track. ;-)

I've never believed that the Bowden car ever had the Moffat decals on it.......

[group C]

Have the bowdens ever claimed thats how it came from ford??? I dont think so not 100% sure though.
As stated i have spoken to the previos owner of this car and he never implied that the stickers(moffet etc)are were factory!!

[ratster70]

PK i agree please keep the info coming yes me, others will diasagree for one of a better word on points but with more info may see your way of thinkin and maybe not.;) Everyones entitled to opinions and im certainly not arguing the fact that you have done alot of research into it and im am very interested in hearing/seeing your facts so i can make up my mind from there.

[HDT337]

OK, let's have a MODEL of the plain red Phase IV - I'd buy one.

There you go, back on track. ;-)

I've never believed that the Bowden car ever had the Moffat decals on it.......

Wow, back on track so easily. Why didnt I think of that.....lol.

HDT337

[pkdiorama]

PK,

Please keep the info coming. I love it all.

As has been said before memories fade & sometimes we remember what we believe.

For example, The Bathurst Cortina's. I've spoken to the Fox at length about these Cars & his recollections (& vast archive of Motor Racing material) differ from the other builders of the era.

I feel sure that the info you've given has enlightened a few of us, here.

Cheers :)
thanks i cant under stand some people why get on this thread if your not interested in the subject ? if you dont want to know then simply go to another thread.. If its okay Ill continue ? if not no worries ill leave this subject alone .. Cheers pk.

[Hey Charger]

thanks i cant under stand some people why get on this thread if your not interested in the subject ? if you dont want to know then simply go to another thread.. If its okay Ill continue ? if not no worries ill leave this subject alone .. Cheers pk.


Please continue to post...its great to see you've got some passion on the topic you wish to share....my only advice to you...lay the facts out there, answer any Q's in a non combative manner....

Cheers

[My Element]

no Allan never seen the Phase4s, Guy in pic white shirt jeans is Graehme Stewart auto electrican contractor, A real wizz on race cars still works on V8 supercars, trouble is too many years have past , 38 years is a long time , some have good memories others it was just a job. Try asking about the 4 bolt blocks and you get stone silence, i dont even ask any more, some things will stay a secret,..cheers PK.


no worries thanks

[pkdiorama]

no more angry comments from me , Ill just answer questions as good as possible. I wouldnt mind asking for some help as well if someone might know of Kim Rane he owned the Phase 4 that he dragged raced in QLD before he sold it back to David Bowden then DB sold it to Rod Mann before selling it back to DB many years latter 1999 i think ? as i doing a model of each Phase4 as owned by differant owners. Dont have any pics of phase4 as owned by Kim Rane , rego number plate No.. as i get 1-18th custom plates made from photo etching.. i know a bit over board but im like that when it comes to detail .. any word if Biante will be doing model of Green Phase4 ? Well hopefully we can get back to norm as this is a great subject and if we stay on track everyone will benifit. As mentioned im hopless at computers even attachments on e-mails i fail..cant teach an old dog new tricks ! so im quite happy to send snail mail photo copies of pics or such let me know..Cheers PK.

[pkdiorama]

one other thing could we please hold off arguing about the decals on DBs phase4 .. its a touchy subject .. so if we can wait until all info is presented then everyone can make up their own mind.. other wise we wont get any where. please.. CheersPK,

[pkdiorama]

Okay Ive explained the mechanics Ive talked to but 2 had passed away years ago . They are Pete Jefferies and Geof Sharpe, another fellow i have not talked to yet is Bill Santuccione who was in charge of QC engines at Fords Geelong plant,not much to do with lot6 by 1972. Ian Stocking was the engineer at lot6 only spoke to him briefly as hes writing a book himself on lot6..Now FSV Lot 6 Mahoneys Rd is still there , last time i seen it the whole front of building had been changed ,wish id taken photo of it 4 years ago when it still looked like it was in early 70s, its now a water bottle delivery dept, the saw tooth roof is still visible from side. If you stand at front look down left side that roller door down back is where mechanics used to enter lot6 , as you enter on your left was lathe and other equipment, directly in front was green room screened off with keep out sign onit. inside here was surface plate where super falcons were built, only these two cars were built on surface plate.. looking slightly to your right towards east wall you have wheel aligner & single post hoist . this is where you see 3 phase 4s being worked on in pics, further right benches for engine assembling, further on staff rooms office area etc. It was just a warehouse, but from 1969 to mid 1974 it was FSV LOT 6. Till next time Cheers PK.

[edy]

PK - you are due for some more comments and rants :D

Good to see you are passionate about those Phase IV cars.

[Nick Short]

I'm still puzzled by David Bowden's statements in AMC, where he says that his car was "sometimes called XA-1 and other times marked as XA-3". Why would that happen?

In the photos the three cars have applied numbers 1, 2 and 3, made of what looks like bits of black tape - are we to believe that because the box marked XA3 was swapped with the box marked XA1 (and why were they swapped anyway?) that the numbers were peeled off the cars and swapped to match what was on the boxes?

"Right-o mate, I'm going to move this SPECIFICALLY NUMBERED box over there and swap it with that SPECIFICALLY NUMBERED box for no good reason. Make sure you peel the numbers off all the cars and re-apply them to match the boxes. No, I don't know why I want you to do that - it could be I'm just bored. Or maybe I can picture the confusion over the cars' ID in 28 years' time".

Why would they do that instead of just keeping the cars marked as they were and making sure the boxes stayed put?

Doesn't it make sense that the cars were marked 1, 2 and 3 with bits of black tape at the outset, and that's how they were identified?

I wasn't there at the time though, and perhaps this random way of working was normal for FSV?

[pkdiorama]

I'm still puzzled by David Bowden's statements in AMC, where he says that his car was "sometimes called XA-1 and other times marked as XA-3". Why would that happen?

In the photos the three cars have applied numbers 1, 2 and 3, made of what looks like bits of black tape - are we to believe that because the box marked XA3 was swapped with the box marked XA1 (and why were they swapped anyway?) that the numbers were peeled off the cars and swapped to match what was on the boxes?

"Right-o mate, I'm going to move this SPECIFICALLY NUMBERED box over there and swap it with that SPECIFICALLY NUMBERED box for no good reason. Make sure you peel the numbers off all the cars and re-apply them to match the boxes. No, I don't know why I want you to do that - it could be I'm just bored. Or maybe I can picture the confusion over the cars' ID in 28 years' time".

Why would they do that instead of just keeping the cars marked as they were and making sure the boxes stayed put?

Doesn't it make sense that the cars were marked 1, 2 and 3 with bits of black tape at the outset, and that's how they were identified?

I wasn't there at the time though, and perhaps this random way of working was normal for FSV?Nick your hit the nail on the head, well spotted, thats what i tried to explain earlier in thread, but things got out of control.. the answers are in wheels & sports car world mags from 1972 once you see the pics in these mags things will become clear, sorry i cant post on to forum, quite happy to send copies snail mail. Cheers PK.

[pkdiorama]

sorry forgot to answer question re. wouldnt first phase 4 delivered to lot6 in May 1972 be more advanced than 2 delivered in June ? good question. answer is no because quite simply Phase 4 parts did not become available till june, dont forget that these were just GTs not HOs so under production rules they had to have HO parts put on them, which were not available in May , dont forget they went from XY to XA . In 1971 they simply took 2 XY GT HO Phase 3 off the production floor with all HO parts already fitted back to lot6, no such luck in 1972, the first batch of 100 XA GT HO phase 4s would only roll of the line last week of June 1972. Next batch of 100 last week of July. Hope this explains your question ? Cheers PK.

[75XBGT]

pk , i was reading amc issue 3 yesterday and there was an article in the rear about a model diorama maker named peter k. is that you??

[Maximus]

Yeah mate. This is the one and the same.

[pkdiorama]

pk , i was reading amc issue 3 yesterday and there was an article in the rear about a model diorama maker named peter k. is that you??
Thanks Maximus, sorry 75XBGT bit slow to reply as Maximus said yes , dont worry about mobile number as shown in article as that changed many years ago, not cause i didnt want to talk to people.. If some one is really interested in Phase 4 can call me or e-mail me no worries.. pkdiorama@msn.com .. 0357217786.. Cheers PK.

[GLENN L]

some very interesting reading there pk, altho im not a ford person i still would like to know about the topic, keep going.

[pkdiorama]

I'm still puzzled by David Bowden's statements in AMC, where he says that his car was "sometimes called XA-1 and other times marked as XA-3". Why would that happen?

In the photos the three cars have applied numbers 1, 2 and 3, made of what looks like bits of black tape - are we to believe that because the box marked XA3 was swapped with the box marked XA1 (and why were they swapped anyway?) that the numbers were peeled off the cars and swapped to match what was on the boxes?

"Right-o mate, I'm going to move this SPECIFICALLY NUMBERED box over there and swap it with that SPECIFICALLY NUMBERED box for no good reason. Make sure you peel the numbers off all the cars and re-apply them to match the boxes. No, I don't know why I want you to do that - it could be I'm just bored. Or maybe I can picture the confusion over the cars' ID in 28 years' time".

Why would they do that instead of just keeping the cars marked as they were and making sure the boxes stayed put?

Doesn't it make sense that the cars were marked 1, 2 and 3 with bits of black tape at the outset, and that's how they were identified?

I wasn't there at the time though, and perhaps this random way of working was normal for FSV?Just one thing Nick no number 1 was put on the car furtherest away in pic , middle car had 2 car closest is number 3 , it was just electrical tape put on by Pete Jefferies, note P&A on brick wall behind Graehme Stewart talking to John Gowland on page 51 AMC. John G was longest with Ford Racing goes back to when Harry Firth ran the show .. Thats Colin Russell under front of car, guy at back into boot Geof Sharpe most likely pop riverting in aluminum safety sheet, not steel as stated in AMC story. Also when i asked John Wynne how long it would take to build one of the cars he said around 10 to 12 days, please note car 2 intop pic on page 51 no left side mirror.. other two have twin mirrors.. Cheers PK.

[Graeme]

I tend to side with PK on the livery front regarding the Brambles Red cars ... with the XA GT-HO consigned to history, the cars were pushed aside so that refurbishment of the XY GT-HOs could be carried out for the 1972 long-distance races.

At some stage later, decisions had to be made as to what was to be done with the three XA GT-HO racers ... it would be interesting to know the hand-over dates for the Goodall (Bowden) and Hodgson cars, but it would be reasonable to assume that these two cars were refettled by FSV for the specific task of rallying. Certainly, maintenance of the Hodgson car remained with FSV throughout 1973. I can't see how either of these two cars would be delivered for rallying bearing "Allan Moffat" on the flanks.

Similarly, the green XA GT-HO road car must have remained in mothballs for approximately six months, with the eventual delivery to Jack Brabham Ford being recorded as January 1973.

[HDT337]

Unfortunatly, over the years the truth is somtimes stretched to suit certain motoring magazines articles and after a while it becomes the new truth.....AMCM do this often, regardless of who could verify the truth, they listen to one party and it becomes gospel....and a lot of wishful thinking.

PK, you have certainly done your research and probably know more about the cars than one of the owners actually does, love reading about it, keep it coming.

HDT337

[GLENN L]

why didnt ford just race these cars, and did any one race a 4 dr xa or were there only hard tops, and why didnt they build hard tops instead of the 4 dr?

[HDT337]

why didnt ford just race these cars, and did any one race a 4 dr xa or were there only hard tops, and why didnt they build hard tops instead of the 4 dr?

It goes back to "Killing off the Super Cars" back in the 70's, apparantly, the road cars were getting too powerful and fast. Correct me if I am wrong....

HDT337

[GLENN L]

but why did they choose to run the hardtops instead.

[david5]

but why did they choose to run the hardtops instead.

IIRC the hardtops were released after the rest of the range, so it was good publicity & they could fit much larger tyres to the rear of the coupe.

I remember reading something where Howard Marsden said that if things had been left alone the Phase 5 would have been a Hardtop.

[AmonFan]

but why did they choose to run the hardtops instead.

Im not sure if its correct, but there was an issue of having trouble fitting the wide wheels under the wheel arches.....

Snap with Dave :p

[GLENN L]

thanks david that make sense.

[group C]

They ran the XA-XC hardtops due to being able to fit huge rubber under the rear gaurds standard as has been stated,also they were thoughty to be more aerodynamic than the sedans(not sure if this was proven or just thought):)

[SL/ENUT]

Be nice to compare the weight between the two, hard top vs sedan.

But, the original topic, wow, fascinating. We all glad that the 2 works cars survive and the road car too.

[pkdiorama]

I tend to side with PK on the livery front regarding the Brambles Red cars ... with the XA GT-HO consigned to history, the cars were pushed aside so that refurbishment of the XY GT-HOs could be carried out for the 1972 long-distance races.

At some stage later, decisions had to be made as to what was to be done with the three XA GT-HO racers ... it would be interesting to know the hand-over dates for the Goodall (Bowden) and Hodgson cars, but it would be reasonable to assume that these two cars were refettled by FSV for the specific task of rallying. Certainly, maintenance of the Hodgson car remained with FSV throughout 1973. I can't see how either of these two cars would be delivered for rallying bearing "Allan Moffat" on the flanks.

Similarly, the green XA GT-HO road car must have remained in mothballs for approximately six months, with the eventual delivery to Jack Brabham Ford being recorded as January 1973. Agree Graeme, was very lucky to get colour pic of Bruce Hoddos Phase 4 at its first rally from one of the mechanics front shot showing it did have twin mirrors, funny that number 2 car in pic in AMC only has one side mirror ? Paul Carthews number 1 car had 2 mirrors also, both car 1& 3 have that mud marking on rear black trim behind rear wheel....anyway Bruce Hoddo took charge of his Phase 4 at some point in 73 and took it back to his Griffith workshop to do it his way. Cheers PK.

[XA Craig]

Great reading PK :cool:

You have certainly put in alot of time and effort researching these fine cars. keep up the good work.

Hopefully all this discussion will kick start Biante to re-consider XAGT sedans. :)

Cheers, Craig

[pkdiorama]

Unfortunatly, over the years the truth is somtimes stretched to suit certain motoring magazines articles and after a while it becomes the new truth.....AMCM do this often, regardless of who could verify the truth, they listen to one party and it becomes gospel....and a lot of wishful thinking.

PK, you have certainly done your research and probably know more about the cars than one of the owners actually does, love reading about it, keep it coming.

HDT337Thanks HDT337,no David Bowden knows more about the Phase 4 works cars than i ever will, He used to tag along with Pete Geoghan to lot6 thats where he meet John Wynne and they became best mates, John has passed on to David heaps of photos only a few have ever been shown , what a shame...i wont say any more, I tape my talks with mechanics so i dont forget important info, One thing i will say is John Wynne was angry at Rob Thompson CC for doing model of Phase 4 the way it was released. but in the end he put his name & photo with the club car ?? John got one for free i built a 1-18th driver for it and custom number plates QLD with palm treeGTHO4. John was happy with his mini me..Paul Carthew also has a wealth of info on his car, hes sent me heaps of photo copied items re his Phase 4, still havent read it all. Cheers PK.

[pkdiorama]

Great reading PK :cool:

You have certainly put in alot of time and effort researching these fine cars. keep up the good work.

Hopefully all this discussion will kick start Biante to re-consider XAGT sedans. :)

Cheers, CraigThanks XA Craig I hope so to ! With the blacked out bonnet, Roy from street fords ( great mag) said both companies showed great interest in the Dentist Phase 4 so be interesting to see who gets in first ? Im down for two, any one else interested ? Cheers PK.

[pkdiorama]

They ran the XA-XC hardtops due to being able to fit huge rubber under the rear gaurds standard as has been stated,also they were thoughty to be more aerodynamic than the sedans(not sure if this was proven or just thought):)Also maybe of interest Colin Russell who built the engines for XAs hard tops in 73 said after Fred Gibsons cars motor blew up they were waiting for Allan Moffats too do same, but irish luck was on his side that day ! they knew the 2 cars would not last the race on Saturday, seems a new type of finish on cam lobes would peel off !! To late to do any thing about it, poor Freddo again.. Cheers PK.

[SL/ENUT]

What, there will be a 1:18 of the dentist's phase IV? I'm going to get one for sure!!!!.

Another interesting thing PK, the work cars were going to get 4 bolt blocks?

[75XBGT]

Thanks Maximus, sorry 75XBGT bit slow to reply as Maximus said yes , dont worry about mobile number as shown in article as that changed many years ago, not cause i didnt want to talk to people.. If some one is really interested in Phase 4 can call me or e-mail me no worries.. pkdiorama@msn.com .. 0357217786.. Cheers PK.

no worries pk. to add to this thread,you are receiving a lot of resistance/ reluctance to listen to your information as i suspect certain people will be not too pleased to realise they do not own the car they thought they did! how would you feel in their place, i know i would be livid as well as embarrassed.
in saying that if you are relaying truthful information i applaud you.
cheers
a.s

[rex555]

Does anyone have a picture of the Hodgson car rallying? I have only ever seen one small, blurry picture of this car.

[AmonFan]

Does anyone have a picture of the Hodgson car rallying? I have only ever seen one small, blurry picture of this car.

Is it the pic in RCN when he is running it at a Catalina Park Rally Cross meet?

[Graeme]

Does anyone have a picture of the Hodgson car rallying? I have only ever seen one small, blurry picture of this car.

Here's a small colour image taken by Ian Wilson, one of the organisers of the 50th running of Victoria's Alpine Rally in 1973 :

[Maximus]

http://www.xagtho.com/

Check it out for a pic of the Green XA

[Maximus]

Also a MASSIVE READ here for anyone thats interested too.

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=1128 4486&page=1&pp=30

[rex555]

Here's a small colour image taken by Ian Wilson, one of the organisers of the 50th running of Victoria's Alpine Rally in 1973 :

Thanks Graeme. The only pic I have seen is from the Alpine. Maybe the same one? Strange that this is the only 4 door GTHO that was actually raced in any form, yet it has never been produced by anyone to my knowledge (?) Is that because it was a rally car and not a circuit car or because the driver wasn't a 'big' name?

[malscar]

Strange that this is the only 4 door GTHO that was actually raced in any form, yet it has never been produced by anyone to my knowledge (?) Is that because it was a rally car and not a circuit car or because the driver wasn't a 'big' name?

All of the above sadly. Can always wait for the inaccurate models to come down in price and code 3 it.

[rex555]

All of the above sadly. Can always wait for the inaccurate models to come down in price and code 3 it.

Where as to me it fits the Biante Racing Legends series because of the car more than the driver.

[malscar]

Is the BRL going to have any rally cars in it?

[rex555]

Is the BRL going to have any rally cars in it?

There are a number that qualify in my book. Bond Toranas & Escorts, Brock Commodores & Toranas, Possum Bourne WRC Impreza, some of the Monaro's that were rallied. There are a lot, even if you only take the Aussie cars.

[AmonFan]

Is the BRL going to have any rally cars in it?

A Peter Lang Torana ;) a Bond Torana XU-1/L34/Monaro just going by what has been produced and perhaps tweaked... Stewart McLeod, Mulligan L34 continue Mal...

[Maq]

IN street Fords magazine did the PHI4 article feature in more issues than #63 #66 #67. I am ordering them and want to make sure it finished in issue 67
Cheers

[Nick Short]

#69.

One more thing that puzzles me - a letter in AMC #6 mentions photos of the Bowden car at the time he first bought it, missing the "roll bar" (I'm guessing he means the panhard rod). If this is right then it was missing one of THE features that is now used to claim the car's ID as Moffat's. Anyone got anything more on this? I haven't seen any photos referred to.

[Graeme]

IN street Fords magazine did the PHI4 article feature in more issues than #63 #66 #67. I am ordering them and want to make sure it finished in issue 67
Cheers

I'm pretty sure that the only issues relevant to the Calypso Green XA GT-HO are #63, #66, and #69.

Was it perhaps readers' mail that made issue #67 relevant ?

[Maq]

Thanks heaps fellas.
Yes reg #67
I will be making a follow up call on Monday :)

[ROY V]

I'm pretty sure that the only issues relevant to the Calypso Green XA GT-HO are #63, #66, and #69.

Was it perhaps readers' mail that made issue #67 relevant ?

Hi,

Just to clarify the Phase IV is in SF48, SF51, SF63, SF66, SF67 SF69 and SF70.

63,66 and 69 are the bulk of it...with the others 51, 67 and 70 have it mentioned in the letters page including in 70 a recent letter from the current owner the Dentist.

48 has my introduction of the Phase IV to the magazine in my editorial including a never beefore seen pic of the car.

They are all available as a back issue by calling 1800 801 647.

Cheers,

Roy Velardi

[ROY V]

Thanks XA Craig I hope so to ! With the blacked out bonnet, Roy from street fords ( great mag) said both companies showed great interest in the Dentist Phase 4 so be interesting to see who gets in first ? Im down for two, any one else interested ? Cheers PK.

Peter is right both Biante and CC have shown interest but it has fizzled off to the point where a Biante employee actually told me that they are not considering this model as they do not believe it to be viable...:confused:

Peter it looks like my discussions with you about building me a version of the Calypso Green production car will progress further...:D

So if you guys want Biante or CC to make one ASK for it and it may happen.

Reperesentatives of either company can reach me via email roy@xagtho.com or bh 02 9741 3993 to discuss if they wish and I will run it all past the owner.

Cheers

[edy]

Peter it looks like my discussions with you about building me a version of the Calypso Green production car will progress further...:D

So if you guys want Biante or CC to make one ASK for it and it may happen.

Reperesentatives of either company can reach me via email roy@xagtho.com or bh 02 9741 3993 to discuss if they wish and I will run it all past the owner.



Without being jumped on since I dont know much about this car.

If the XA Phase IV GTHO was to be made by CC, could they use the mould from the 1973 Ford XA Falcon RPO83 Sedan (18226 or 18351).

[edy]

Done a bit more research:-

http://shop.magstore.com.au/ProductDetails.asp?Pro ductCode=SF-Phase4

It appears you can buy for $5 an electronic version of the Street Ford magazine that contain the specific Phase IV bits.

[Graeme]

Without being jumped on since I dont know much about this car.

If the XA Phase IV GTHO was to be made by CC, could they use the mould from the 1973 Ford XA Falcon RPO83 Sedan (18226 or 18351).

In model car terms, the most significant variation would involve the Calypso Green car's sunroof ... a diecast mould amendment. Other aspects are small plastic mould details, for instance the power window features.

[ROY V]

In model car terms, the most significant variation would involve the Calypso Green car's sunroof ... a diecast mould amendment. Other aspects are small plastic mould details, for instance the power window features.

Correct but there are a few other items that would need to be changed-adapted.

I'm happy to work with the model makers on addressing these items.

It can all be done, but they have to want to do it...

[ROY V]

Done a bit more research:-

http://shop.magstore.com.au/ProductDetails.asp?Pro ductCode=SF-Phase4

It appears you can buy for $5 an electronic version of the Street Ford magazine that contain the specific Phase IV bits.

Correct, that's the online version of SF63, 66 and 69.

Cheers

[pkdiorama]

Hi Roy glad you explained whats going on re.. model of Dentist Phase 4, cant beleive that the companies dont think it would sell well .. Might have to do a few code 3s the hard way.. Cheers PK.

[singer]

Hi Roy glad you explained whats going on re.. model of Dentist Phase 4, cant beleive that the companies dont think it would sell well .. Might have to do a few code 3s the hard way.. Cheers PK.

Get the lime Green XA to start with. It'll make things easier:)

[Nick Short]

Without being jumped on since I dont know much about this car.

If the XA Phase IV GTHO was to be made by CC, could they use the mould from the 1973 Ford XA Falcon RPO83 Sedan (18226 or 18351).

.....OR they could use the mould they used for the Phase 4 race car! Already has the winged sump etc.

[ROY V]

.....OR they could use the mould they used for the Phase 4 race car! Already has the winged sump etc.

Exactly plus other bits...then get the stock XAGT for the standard trim etc

[pkdiorama]

Hi Roy good call on using the Phase4 race car as a base to build dentist car, as RPO models have the interior radio antenna only differant item is sun roof , Id love to add this to my collection,other wise have to do it the hard way , code 3..means pulling apart 2 models to build one..I can see Biantes point, but whats stopping CC ? Cheers PK.

[edy]

Given that both companies have pumped out numerous 1/18 Phase 1, 2 and 3 GT-HO's you would have thought the mystical Phase 4 would sell as people would like to finish off their collection of road cars.

Perhaps what is stopping them is that they can only make version of the road car?

[Nick Short]

I can't see why either company would bother making one of THE most exciting and historically-important Australian cars of all time.....

If CC have already made the Bowden race car then the road car should be high on any production list. As rare as can be, part of Ford's racing heritage (the first, and only, homologation road car for the intended race programme), a damn nice looking sedan, and a bona fide Aussie supercar! Apart from that, it's got nothing going for it.

I reckon there is some sticking point between CC or Biante and the owner, otherwise it would have been made a while back. Think what more-obscure cars have been modelled already - surely they can't be more desirable......

[pkdiorama]

Well said Nick, over to you Roy , dont think the Dentist is stopping his car from being made into a 1-18th model ? as Roy has stated hes happy to work with either company to produce a replica of the street Phase 4.Might have to go down scale to 1-24th and see if Trax would be interested..Cheers PK.

[SL/ENUT]

Has anyone emailed both companies to see what they say? I have and the answer i got is interesting.

[group C]

Has anyone emailed both companies to see what they say? I have and the answer i got is interesting.
well feel free to share :confused:

[Maximus]

dont leave us hanging like that.......

[louieate8ate]

well feel free to share :confused:

dont leave us hanging like that.......
And.........

[mick78]

And.........


The suspense is killing me.

[Nick Short]

Well said Nick, over to you Roy , dont think the Dentist is stopping his car from being made into a 1-18th model ? as Roy has stated hes happy to work with either company to produce a replica of the street Phase 4.Might have to go down scale to 1-24th and see if Trax would be interested..Cheers PK.

PLEASE, NOT TRAX!

[edy]

Has anyone emailed both companies to see what they say? I have and the answer i got is interesting.

A lot of people on this forum really hate it when people know something, hint it and then not say it?

Poor form.... :mad:

I dont know if this breaches the forum rules?

[group C]

A lot of people on this forum really hate it when people know something, hint it and then not say it?

Poor form.... :mad:

I dont know if this breaches the forum rules?
dunno about forum rules edy but I hate it in real life to the missus does it all the time:mad:
If ya not gunna say it dont start to!!!!!

[SL/ENUT]

Like i said, go an email them. What i got was they have a huge back order, but not ruling out making this car.

[pkdiorama]

#69.

One more thing that puzzles me - a letter in AMC #6 mentions photos of the Bowden car at the time he first bought it, missing the "roll bar" (I'm guessing he means the panhard rod). If this is right then it was missing one of THE features that is now used to claim the car's ID as Moffat's. Anyone got anything more on this? I haven't seen any photos referred to.
Sorry Nick not answering this question sooner, there is a B&W photo in AMC story on DBs Phase4 also in 1987 super ford mag, shows how Kieth Goodall got his Phase 4 with raised ride height (for rallying) street exhaust system no panhard rod , and Kieth did remove Roll cage himself, you can clearly see its not in car , In super ford mag DB clearly states thats how Kieth got his Phase4 from FSV Lot6 set up for rallying, Cheers PK.

[pkdiorama]

Also i dont think the panhard rod would have been fitted to production Phase4 road car, Had there not been the super car scare the Phase4 would have raced at Bathurst 1972 under same strict production rules as in 1971, It would have been impossible to fit exhaust (street legal) with pan hard rod in place..This item would have been for Grp C cars with side dump pipes. May be Roy V could explain if the Dentist Phase4 car feels dangerous to drive with out pan hard rod fitted, as this car has Detroit locker Diff fitted ? I asked Bruce Hodgson if he thought his rally Phase4 needed a pan hard rod , he said no it handled great with out one. Cheers PK.

[Graeme]

Well said Nick, over to you Roy , dont think the Dentist is stopping his car from being made into a 1-18th model ? as Roy has stated hes happy to work with either company to produce a replica of the street Phase 4.Might have to go down scale to 1-24th and see if Trax would be interested..Cheers PK.

The XA Falcon GT-HO in basic terms is just another Ford road car ... although only one production item was actually manufactured by Ford Australia, the only permission required for doing a model replica is to obtain Ford licensing approval. Biante's Ford approvals historically originate from Ford's Dearborn (USA) office.

As I've mentioned previously, sort out the sunroof situation and the model is not a complex issue ... especially so for CC who have already invested in XA sedan tooling.

[singer]

The XA Falcon GT-HO in basic terms is just another Ford road car ... although only one production item was actually manufactured by Ford Australia, the only permission required for doing a model replica is to obtain Ford licensing approval. Biante's Ford approvals historically originate from Ford's Dearborn (USA) office.

As I've mentioned previously, sort out the sunroof situation and the model is not a complex issue ... especially so for CC who have already invested in XA sedan tooling.

& as CC have already done an XW with a Sunroof this should be a dodle:)

[pkdiorama]

Also wondering if it would be wrong to do a model in the other colour it was painted by first owner ? Cheers PK.

[edy]

I think it should be the colour that it left the Ford Motor Company!

Then again, to re-use the mould, they can do 2 versions to make it worthwhile!

[Graeme]

I think it should be the colour that it left the Ford Motor Company!

Then again, to re-use the mould, they can do 2 versions to make it worthwhile!

... or look at doing some standard XA Falcon GT sedans, with selected options.

[ROY V]

Also i dont think the panhard rod would have been fitted to production Phase4 road car, Had there not been the super car scare the Phase4 would have raced at Bathurst 1972 under same strict production rules as in 1971, It would have been impossible to fit exhaust (street legal) with pan hard rod in place..This item would have been for Grp C cars with side dump pipes. May be Roy V could explain if the Dentist Phase4 car feels dangerous to drive with out pan hard rod fitted, as this car has Detroit locker Diff fitted ? I asked Bruce Hodgson if he thought his rally Phase4 needed a pan hard rod , he said no it handled great with out one. Cheers PK.

Hi PK,

The Green road car is an absolute pleasure to drive with the detoit locker. No handling problems at all, not dangerous unless in the hands of a hoon in the wet!

No different to driving any other GT or GT-HO really. Several Phase 3's had detroit locker differentials with no panhard rod fitted either...

Comes down to driver ability, driving conditions and the heavyness of the drivers right foot! :)

Cheers

[pkdiorama]

Hi PK,

The Green road car is an absolute pleasure to drive with the detoit locker. No handling problems at all, not dangerous unless in the hands of a hoon in the wet!

No different to driving any other GT or GT-HO really. Several Phase 3's had detroit locker differentials with no panhard rod fitted either...

Comes down to driver ability, driving conditions and the heavyness of the drivers right foot! :)

CheersThanks Roy, one lucky bloke ! Not to many that can say they have driven a Phase 4 , and i know a certain editor from another mag that would be the same colour as the dentists car for not getting the story first !! Cheers PK.

[pkdiorama]

Took a look at AMC forum has thread on Phase 4 , cant believe what rubbish is being said, having a go at dentist phase4 until someone set him straight, Again Paul Carthews Phase 4 gets rubbished by someone that doesnt know what there talking about...The sooner the real truth is written by a quality magazine the better.. Cheers PK. ps maybe i should have put this in what cheeses you off thread.

[ROY V]

Took a look at AMC forum has thread on Phase 4 , cant believe what rubbish is being said, having a go at dentist phase4 until someone set him straight, Again Paul Carthews Phase 4 gets rubbished by someone that doesnt know what there talking about...The sooner the real truth is written by a quality magazine the better.. Cheers PK. ps maybe i should have put this in what cheeses you off thread.

I will give you one guess who set that forum member straight...

[Nick Short]

Took a look at AMC forum has thread on Phase 4 , cant believe what rubbish is being said, having a go at dentist phase4 until someone set him straight, Again Paul Carthews Phase 4 gets rubbished by someone that doesnt know what there talking about...The sooner the real truth is written by a quality magazine the better.. Cheers PK. ps maybe i should have put this in what cheeses you off thread.

Just went to have a look - didn't know there was an AMC forum. Love that they're still peddling the "RPO83s had all the Phase IV bits" and the Stillwell hardtop is "just a GT".

So if the Stillwell hardtop has a full-house Phase IV kit of parts.......AND SO DO THE RPO83s, then they are EXACTLY THE SAME CAR, except of course the RPOs would be MORE VALUABLE because they've got proper compliance plates.....

Yeah, right.

And the green road car isn't worth much either, apparently.

[pkdiorama]

Was that you Roy or one of the fellows that rebuilt the Dentists Phase 4 ? who ever it was sure knew what they were talking about. Your right Nick re. RPO 83. I didnt know about AMC forum either , stubblied on it on another thread in this forum, ive joined but not holding my breath waiting for approval.. Im writing a letter to Mel Nichoals the editor of Sports Car World to see if i can get permisson to use photos that are in story he did of Phase4 being built at FSV Lot6 last week of June 1972, I got letter from him confirming date he was in Lot6 to do story on Moffats & Gibsons Works Phase 4, was last week of June 72. Loved the dios i make, lucky these get me in contact with alot of people. Also came across old copy of AMC with story about Moffats Cobra, doing a code 3 of Bonds Cobra, turning it into Moffats Sandown Cobra with twin mirrors, reading the Paul Carthew letter re. his Phase 4 , Again David Bowden is given twice as many pages and Paul doesnt get to reply.. one sided. What DB says makes no scense , wish i could post it on thread and if anyone can make scense of it ..well your a better person than me.. Cheers PK.

[Nick Short]

That Henry is so knowledgeable about Fords he didn't know about the Stillwell hardtop until he read it in AMC.......I heard about it in England years ago! And it had been mentioned in Unique Cars some years earlier too. So it's not as though someone just made it up last week. So yes, Henry, the RPOs are all Phase IVs, and as for the very ordinary Calypso Green "GT", I'll offer the owner GT money and see how grateful he is.

Did Street Fords get to do the story (and what a great job they did too!) because of any personal feelings by the owner about AMC's coverage of the race cars?

[ROY V]

Was that you Roy or one of the fellows that rebuilt the Dentists Phase 4 ? who ever it was sure knew what they were talking about.

It was me PK.

[ROY V]

Did Street Fords get to do the story (and what a great job they did too!) because of any personal feelings by the owner about AMC's coverage of the race cars?

Hi Nick,

I got to do the article on the car because I have been friends with the owner for years and also because my cousin has been lifetime friends with the owner as well.

There are several other family links along the way as well. The owner felt he could trust me and could have the articles portrayed to his and the general muscle car fans liking.

AMC had approached the owner over the years but he was and still is reluctant to share it with them for his own reasons.

I'm glad you enjoyed the articles, plenty have. I'm still receiving emails of thanks which is nice as it makes all the hard work in putting them together well worth the while.

Cheers :D

[Maq]

I just got my copies of Street fords yesterday. I guess not much work will get done today

[edy]

Roy V - is it true that the Phase IV got boxed up in concrete or is that an urban myth?

[ROY V]

Roy V - is it true that the Phase IV got boxed up in concrete or is that an urban myth?

Just one of the many urban myths!

Another is that the owner smeared the entire car with Vaseline, then cling wrapped it and locked it in a garage...

I almost fell over with laughter when an older fella was telling me this story!!!

Cheers

[Nick Short]

But it was true that he had a Bengal Tiger chained up in the garage to deter thieves. And that the whole building was wired up to explosives. And that the car never turned a wheel for 30 years. Etc etc.....

[ROY V]

But it was true that he had a Bengal Tiger chained up in the garage to deter thieves. And that the whole building was wired up to explosives. And that the car never turned a wheel for 30 years. Etc etc.....

Nice one Nick! :)

[pkdiorama]

Great to have you on this forum Roy good to get your replies, Has anyone done any research on the RPO-83s ? how many were built etc ? Also Nick next time i talk to mechanics that worked at Lot6 will ask if they know about the Stillwell 2door XA with Phase 4 gear. As they had the Dentist Phase 4 in Lot 6 for service, Heres one most people dont know about. The Bill Bourke 428 XW was not the only Ford to have this motor fitted. Two cars were sent to US. the XW sedan & a yellow XT ute was sent to be checked over by US Ford. The fellows at Lot6 ended up using ute . The story checks out as Local Ford dealer here in Wang has spare parts guy who done his cadetship as mechanic at Ford and can remember seeing both cars on display . Colin Russell got the 428 motor which he sold. The ute was sold with original motor.. At least its not like the 2 XB Hardtops with 427s that was a myth.. Cheers PK.

[ROY V]

The Phase IV was never at lot 6 from what I have been told.

There was however a Phase III that was dark green that was regularly serviced there, the owner was a Dr, and good friend of one the guys there...

[pkdiorama]

The Phase IV was never at lot 6 from what I have been told.

There was however a Phase III that was dark green that was regularly serviced there, the owner was a Dr, and good friend of one the guys there...
Thanks Roy i only got this from one of the mechanics that Dentist Phase 4 was at Lot 6, thats why i like to ask all of them . but didnt , thats how wrong info gets out..foot in mouth ! as i said glad to have you on forum. Cheers PK.

[Nick Short]

The best story I ever heard about the Calypso Green car was that the owner was a reclusive eccentric, and the car had been driven into his lounge room and parked there for 30 years, and he just stayed in (presumably with a 4 foot beard and wild hair, eating cat food from a tin) and looked at it.........

[mick78]

...

[Maq]

...


Well said :p :D

[<Jonboy>]

The best story I ever heard about the Calypso Green car was that the owner was a reclusive eccentric, and the car had been driven into his lounge room and parked there for 30 years, and he just stayed in (presumably with a 4 foot beard and wild hair, eating cat food from a tin) and looked at it.........
nah ZZ Top used to drive hot rods :D

[BILLFORD1]

Whilst on the subject...Did everybody else get a 'Watchlist Update' re the 1/18 Biante Phase IV model, (A72743), being sold out so thereby removed from your/our Watchlist ???? I was under the impression that it got canned over a year ago when CC did a model of same ?? Am I missing something/out of the loop/ gone bananas or what ????...... :D

[XA Craig]

I got the same email. :confused:

I was going to start a new thread asking why the XAGT sedans were canned on the first place. May as well post it here.

Chris Roch, could you please explain why XA GT sedans (and XB GT's for that matter) were canned in the first place? It's not as if it was a "start from scratch" project. Obviously the windscreen forward could be carried over from the coupe.
Everytime I see pics of collectors recently released Sandman utes and panel vans I ask myself why no XA XB sedans??

Cheers,
Craig

[brchi17]

I received that email too, this makes me think that this project is well and truly dead....:sad:

[XA Craig]

Why though Brad? that's what I cant understand.

so much going for the mould IMO

[brchi17]

Why though Brad? that's what I cant understand.

so much going for the mould IMO

I have no idea myself, as I'd dearly love a Biante 4-door to go with the rest of my GT Falcon's. As you said a lot of the work is already done (with the coupe) and so logic would have to say that perhaps they feel with CC already releasing this model that there simply isn't enough demand out in the marketplace to make this incomplete project a reality.....I suppose our only hope is that in some years time they decide to change their mind :(

[XA Craig]

Ah well, we can only hope mate.

The slopey front and short rear on CC's sedan just doesnt cut it for me unfortunetly.

Hopefully Chris can clear up why it was dropped ;)

[faj]

i'm guessing as it ties in with the previous announcements of the rest of the sedans being canned... don't get me wrong i really appreciate that there a 2 companies making these cars for us but really, how many more phase III's can get released? there has to be more models of them out there than real & mock ups by now....

[brchi17]

....The slopey front and short rear on CC's sedan just doesnt cut it for me unfortunetly....

same here, hence the reason I was really hoping for the Biante release.....:sad:

[Footy]

http://www.biante.com.au/files/products/pictures/1 6394_a72743.jpg
Product Code: A72743
Model: FORD XA FALCON GTHO Allan Moffat - PHASE IV (1972)
Scale: 1:18
The Availability of this item has been updated to: Sold Out
As a result your this product has been removed from your watchlist.

[rex555]

I'd like someone to do one in 1/43 so I can at least Code 3 a rally car if it isn't ever to be done rather than mock up race cars as has been produced

[malscar]

I'd like someone to do one in 1/43 so I can at least Code 3 a rally car if it isn't ever to be done rather than mock up race cars as has been produced

Oh come on rex, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.:rolleyes:

[XA Craig]

I recently ordered one of these beauties :D

Perfect cantidate for a code 3 rex ;)

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6524/image1194x xl.jpg (http://img180.imageshack.us/i/image1194xxl.jpg/)

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/4926/image1188x xl.jpg (http://img409.imageshack.us/i/image1188xxl.jpg/)

[rayman]

I recently ordered one of these beauties :D

Perfect cantidate for a code 3 rex ;)

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6524/image1194x xl.jpg (http://img180.imageshack.us/i/image1194xxl.jpg/)

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/4926/image1188x xl.jpg (http://img409.imageshack.us/i/image1188xxl.jpg/)
And you have the nerve to question the shape of CC's effort. Go figure.

[XA Craig]

what's wrong with it?? keeping in mind its 1:43

[rayman]

what's wrong with it?? keeping in mind its 1:43
The shorter answer would come from the question, "What's right with it"?

[malscar]

The wing mirrors look good.

[rex555]

As close as we've got at this point. I'd need to send it to malscar for some remedial work to get the colour right though

[pkdiorama]

I'd like someone to do one in 1/43 so I can at least Code 3 a rally car if it isn't ever to be done rather than mock up race cars as has been produced
Glad im not alone in wish list for XA gt sedan or ute, Ive already code 3 CC Phase 4 to Hoddos rally car , just waiting to paint left side mirror, couldnt find any clear colour shots of door race signage so left it with ford logo on back and cibie on front, still waiting on Bruce Hodgson to send certificate back signed...not holding my breath..getting ride height was a pain ..rest was easy , mud flaps spotlights , swapped globes from Biante XY.Number plates take yellow fire extingusher bottle out. remove remote drivers mirror lever from door, add RPO exhaust and it looks good, Paul Carthews nearly done, also started Kieth Goodalls another one to raise ride height to rally specs.. also is there any way to delete my early posts in this thread ? when i read them well feel like an idiot some of the comments .. Cheers PK.

[rex555]

I for one will be very interested in seeing some pictures when you have finished the rally car. Snaps of that are very hard to come by I have found.

[XA Craig]

As close as we've got at this point. I'd need to send it to malscar for some remedial work to get the colour right though

Pretty sure a Red Pepper version has already been released ;)

[pkdiorama]

I for one will be very interested in seeing some pictures when you have finished the rally car. Snaps of that are very hard to come by I have found.
No worries rex555 having trouble with e-mail , happy to send snail mail photos, does anyone know who sells spray can Ford pepper red ? tried Repco & Ford dealer no luck .. typical Wangaratta cant buy anything local, Cheers PK.

[XA Craig]

PK, your best bet is an automotive paint supplier ;) paint code x, dulon shade 13931

They should be able to mix it for you.

[pkdiorama]

PK, your best bet is an automotive paint supplier ;) paint code x, dulon shade 13931

They should be able to mix it for you.
Thank you XA Craig will give them a try.

[rex555]

Pretty sure a Red Pepper version has already been released ;)

Thanks for that XA Craig. They stopped sending me brochures after they realized that I hadn't bought anything for 10 years ;)

[cdg]

I have seen a very accurate xb 4 door at TRU, its in 1/32 scale. The same company also makes an XB ute - the only one ive ever seen in diecast.

__________________________________________________ _
My diecast blog: http://capitaldiecastgarage.blogspot.com

[pkdiorama]

Just reading on one of the ford forums fellow made a good find , in AMC story on Phase 4 pic showing John Wynne testing Phase 4 , this car has twin mirrors, something i have not noticed before. and the plot thickens ... Cheers PK.

[ROY V]

Just reading on one of the ford forums fellow made a good find , in AMC story on Phase 4 pic showing John Wynne testing Phase 4 , this car has twin mirrors, something i have not noticed before. and the plot thickens ... Cheers PK.

Just had a look PK and to me it doesn't appear to have a passenger mirror fitted. The pic is too blurry to say 100% in my opinion.

Cheers

[pkdiorama]

Just had a look PK and to me it doesn't appear to have a passenger mirror fitted. The pic is too blurry to say 100% in my opinion.

Cheers
Have too disagree on this one Roy. I didnt think it did have a left side mirror, but out came magnifying glass, yes pic is blurry but you can make out the out line, I wouldnt say 100% . Cheers PK.

[ROY V]

Have too disagree on this one Roy. I didnt think it did have a left side mirror, but out came magnifying glass, yes pic is blurry but you can make out the out line, I wouldnt say 100% . Cheers PK.

No magnifying glass here so I couldnt check! :)

[pkdiorama]

I still reckon car 3 thats being track tested is the one Bruce Hodgson got to rally, Cheers PK.

[pkdiorama]

Also of interest in 1987 super ford mag the final finest phase page 26. you have on left XYGT III could this be the Quicksilver test mule ? next to it is Fred Gibsons XYGT phase3 being worked on for Adelaide 27th August race, still has rear spoiler on, next to it is phase 4 , bonnet full up right position ready to have engine installed, note drivers seat still in place, this is car now owned by Paul Carthew, at this late date it was only car of the three to be least developed, the other two had been completed , the position of car is where the least developed car was at when photos were taken by Uwe Kuessner & Mel Nichols in last week of June 1972. So looking good for Pauls story that his phase 4 was fitted with QC engine, Why would they remove standard motor then put it back ? why would they remove front grille lights indicators chrome fittings ? as stated by Keith Lea in AMC issue 8 . none of these items needed to be removed to build the works phase4 race cars, also stated Pauls car needed its entire panels bolted on and fitted correctly ? Does this confirm that extra welding was done to it at Lot 6 ? why else would you remove all panels ?? I think we can safely name which car is which.. photos dont lie, even when they are 38 years old. there was no spares car , one was built first to be used as test mule , car 3 it had alot of track testing done, what worked on it would be transferred to the 2 works cars , makes scence, car 2 Gibsons car would have been next for Fred to test, this one had one mirror remote lever fire bottle installed, all feature unqiue to one car. car 1 was last to be built xa1 in house jargon for Moffs car as stated by Mel Nichols in his story done in 1972 June.. Cheers PK.

[Graeme]

If anybody wants more information and pictures of Hoddo's car, then check out Australian Muscle Car magazine issue #37 (May/June 2008), pages 78 to 85, "The Final Phase".

The magazine has seven 'black & white' images of the car in action, plus two images of the car as it would usually appear in CAMS homologation papers or log book. All of the images show the car wearing New South Wales rego plates, GDF333.

... and, one of the action images has the car wearing a left side door mirror.

[cdg]

Interesting item.:D

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zBg6z6tZd90/TJ8Y5MbYt5I/ AAAAAAAABgA/pvz8nehEdIo/s1600/phase+4+badge.jpg

__________________________________________________ _
My diecast blog: http://capitaldiecastgarage.blogspot.com

[Graeme]

I saw similar badges listed on eBay only three or four years ago, but without ever having seen photos of "The Dentist" car, I wasn't sure whether these were a genuine item relating to the XA Falcon GT-HO console badge.

[pkdiorama]

If anybody wants more information and pictures of Hoddo's car, then check out Australian Muscle Car magazine issue #37 (May/June 2008), pages 78 to 85, "The Final Phase".

The magazine has seven 'black & white' images of the car in action, plus two images of the car as it would usually appear in CAMS homologation papers or log book. All of the images show the car wearing New South Wales rego plates, GDF333.

... and, one of the action images has the car wearing a left side door mirror.i think GDF333 rego ended up on a Datsun ?? glued left side mirror on my Hoddo phase4 model, just have to put on RPO 83 exhaust system. does anyone know where i can get photo of single post hoist with pivoting arms ? as have to build one in 1-18th scale for lot 6 workshop. Cheers PK.

[Maximus]

Check this website out. Should be able to work it out from there.

http://www.autohoist.com.au/two-post-hoist-YSJ-4000.html

[pkdiorama]

Check this website out. Should be able to work it out from there.

http://www.autohoist.com.au/two-post-hoist-YSJ-4000.html
Thanks Maximus, after old style one post hoist from 50s to 60sand early 70s, the support used to go down into floor, two types, im after the one with pivoting arms, also thanks for info on Barry Smith, 50cc my chain saw has more ccs, Cheers PK.

[pkdiorama]

Just read issue 13 AMC re.. rare phase 4 ho documents expose four bolt secrets.. i usually keep out of arguments regarding 4 bolt blocks, but the parts catalogue shown dont appear to be from 1972 as claimed in article, why would you have 1974 XB mentioned in a 1972 parts catalogue ? doesnt make scense ? does anyone have an explanation ? Cheers PK.

[Nick Short]

Well it certainly isn't "dated June 1972" as AMC claims, as it features the XB and has data listed as "from 9/75", ie on or after September 1975. Something not quite right there....

One thing I missed was that there is a book and DVD in the pipeline about the sole road car! A well-photographed and written book would be fantastic, and how about a DVD that shows you the thing actually in action? The sound of that 351......

[pkdiorama]

Well it certainly isn't "dated June 1972" as AMC claims, as it features the XB and has data listed as "from 9/75", ie on or after September 1975. Something not quite right there....

One thing I missed was that there is a book and DVD in the pipeline about the sole road car! A well-photographed and written book would be fantastic, and how about a DVD that shows you the thing actually in action? The sound of that 351......
Glad you picked the mistake ? up to Nick, I showed this to Ford parts fellow ( 30 or more years in his job ) he agreed not from 72 as they dont make mention of future cars in parts cat.. he has seen alot of cars with 4 bolt blocks, but I think these would have been from 73 - 74 when you could actually buy 4 bolt blocks from Ford, or maybe Ford slipped them into some 2Door XA ,XBs ? Bruce Hoddos rally phase4 had one for 73 rally season, but back in June 72 I reckon it would of been 2 bolt block as Dentist phase4 & Paul Carthews , David B. seems to have made his phase4 like Grp c regulation, panhard rod, side dump pipes 4bolt block.. Cheers PK.

[rayman]

I do know that the 4 bolt blocks were put into the production line and went into anything including F100's, sedans, coupe's, whatever. They were never designated to anything in particular, it was all random.

[Nick Short]

Glad you picked the mistake ? up to Nick, I showed this to Ford parts fellow ( 30 or more years in his job ) he agreed not from 72 as they dont make mention of future cars in parts cat.. he has seen alot of cars with 4 bolt blocks, but I think these would have been from 73 - 74 when you could actually buy 4 bolt blocks from Ford, or maybe Ford slipped them into some 2Door XA ,XBs ? Bruce Hoddos rally phase4 had one for 73 rally season, but back in June 72 I reckon it would of been 2 bolt block as Dentist phase4 & Paul Carthews , David B. seems to have made his phase4 like Grp c regulation, panhard rod, side dump pipes 4bolt block.. Cheers PK.

Actually digging the issue out again I see that the "June 1972" data includes part numbers "from 10/75", ie October 1975 onwards. That's quite forward thinking in a parts catalogue!

According to AMC, this 1975-onwards rare June 1972 catalogue, listing 4-bolt mains "validates Bowden's explanation as to why his Phase Four race car......did not have matching chassis and engine ID numbers". What do you reckon?

In an old UK magazine I have the Bowden car is shown, minus all its Moffat decals, but not enough detailed photography to see what else (if anything) is different to its current "original" state..

[pkdiorama]

Actually digging the issue out again I see that the "June 1972" data includes part numbers "from 10/75", ie October 1975 onwards. That's quite forward thinking in a parts catalogue!

According to AMC, this 1975-onwards rare June 1972 catalogue, listing 4-bolt mains "validates Bowden's explanation as to why his Phase Four race car......did not have matching chassis and engine ID numbers". What do you reckon?

In an old UK magazine I have the Bowden car is shown, minus all its Moffat decals, but not enough detailed photography to see what else (if anything) is different to its current "original" state..I do know Hoddo passed on alot of stuff from his wrecked phase 4 to DB. Maybe the disappearing 4 bolt engine from Hoddos phase 4 didnt end up in a never found speed boat ?? could this have been another story to cover up truth ?. the UK mag you have with pic of DBs phase4 what year is it Nick ? Is it very early pic with raised ride height for rallying ? Im trying to find date of 1972 Dulux Rally at Hume Weir , as Kieth Goodall got his phase 4 about 4 to 5 months after this. also good read in 1987 super ford No1 pic of how Rod Mann had phase4, looked abit shabby, no red stripes on bonnet, engine wrong blue, wrong wing sump, looks like original motor was replaced. on page 34 Rod points out special feature on his car 2 clips holding boot wire harness.. which you can clearly see on XA-2 in all pics .I think we can safely say the so called 1972 parts cat is busted. Cheers PK .

[Graeme]

...

According to AMC, this 1975-onwards rare June 1972 catalogue, listing 4-bolt mains "validates Bowden's explanation as to why his Phase Four race car......did not have matching chassis and engine ID numbers". What do you reckon?

...

Quite simply, none of the three Brambles Red cars were ever likely to retain matching chassis and engine ID numbers ... the cars were originally built as standard XA Falcon GT sedans, not GT-HOs, and therefore did not arrive at FSV with HO-spec "QC" engines.

[Nick Short]

The magazine is from 10 years ago and features undated photos of the car in plain red, no stickers, and owned by Rod Mann. Mann "carried out a minor restoration", saying that "virtually no new parts went on it".

The magazine goes on to say "but he did bring the car up to period racing spec", and quotes Mann as saying "It's back to where it was to meet the production car rules for 1972, where they were allowed up to 2 in lower than standard height and the exhaust sytem was free after the extractors. The roll cage and fuel tank were already in and the car had been fully seam welded when it was built".

The magazine says "When we photographed the car it was still in Rod's possession, but it has recently been bought back by David....who felt that the car wasn't up to his usual high standard....and organised for a fair amount of work to be done. Again repainted in its original Brambles Red, the car has had the clock turned back to 1973 with the addition of all the racing stickers that were there when Bowden first bought the car".

An interesting last line there! I would like to see even one photo of the car with those stickers from new. Or at least "new" in the sense that Bowden bought the car with 700 miles on the clock and had already sold it by 1974.

[pkdiorama]

Sounds like same story as in 1987 super ford, Ive got nothing against DB decorating his car to what he likes. What gets me mad is telling the history of the 3 works cars wrongly, putting out wrong info and cementing it as fact, why not the simple truth ,both Pauls & Davids phase 4 works cars are treasures, so why all the half truths and wrong info ?? Hopefully by 40 th anniversary the real facts will be printed, looks like more detective work to do . Cheers PK.

[Nick Short]

...and you just might be the bloke to do it!

[pkdiorama]

...and you just might be the bloke to do it!No Im hopeless
stringing together information and sentences.. Cheers PK.

[pkdiorama]

Quite simply, none of the three Brambles Red cars were ever likely to retain matching chassis and engine ID numbers ... the cars were originally built as standard XA Falcon GT sedans, not GT-HOs, and therefore did not arrive at FSV with HO-spec "QC" engines.
Thats correct Graeme, be interesting to talk to someone that assembled the QC engines in Ford GEELONG plant. Cheers PK.

[david5]

I do know Hoddo passed on alot of stuff from his wrecked phase 4 to DB. Maybe the disappearing 4 bolt engine from Hoddos phase 4 didnt end up in a never found speed boat ?? could this have been another story to cover up truth ?. the UK mag you have with pic of DBs phase4 what year is it Nick ? Is it very early pic with raised ride height for rallying ? Im trying to find date of 1972 Dulux Rally at Hume Weir , as Kieth Goodall got his phase 4 about 4 to 5 months after this. also good read in 1987 super ford No1 pic of how Rod Mann had phase4, looked abit shabby, no red stripes on bonnet, engine wrong blue, wrong wing sump, looks like original motor was replaced. on page 34 Rod points out special feature on his car 2 clips holding boot wire harness.. which you can clearly see on XA-2 in all pics .I think we can safely say the so called 1972 parts cat is busted. Cheers PK .

http://www.snooksmotorsport.com.au/index.php?optio n=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=39

[pkdiorama]

http://www.snooksmotorsport.com.au/index.php?optio n=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=39
Thank you very much david5, wow all the info I needed and more, thank you . Cheers PK.

[SL/ENUT]

I suppose most people that worked on them would have a fading memory. However the best person, if he was alive would of been late Howard Marsden. Although some bits i've read, very secret type of bloke.

[pkdiorama]

So Keith Goodall got his Phase 4 around May June 1973, Cheers PK.

[pkdiorama]

I suppose most people that worked on them would have a fading memory. However the best person, if he was alive would of been late Howard Marsden. Although some bits i've read, very secret type of bloke.No Howard was very media savy, Al Turner was very secretive, Howard invited media into FSV Lot6, lucky for us other wise no photos would have been avaliable . Howard & Bill Santuccione both said no 4 bolt blocks.. Cheers PK.

[david5]

Thank you very much david5, wow all the info I needed and more, thank you . Cheers PK.

All part of the friendly service. As you can see I spend way too much time on line. ;)

[pkdiorama]

All part of the friendly service. As you can see I spend way too much time on line. ;)
And thankgoodness you do as Id never have found that info in a million years ! Thanks again, Cheers PK.

[pkdiorama]

One more question , does anyone know what month Townsville QLD has its show ? in particuilar 1973, Also if Keith Goodall owned a wrecking yard in Townsville ? any info would be appreciated, Cheers PK.

[Nick Short]

Thank you very much david5, wow all the info I needed and more, thank you . Cheers PK.

All I could see was Goodall driving an XW - what have I overlooked?

[pkdiorama]

All I could see was Goodall driving an XW - what have I overlooked?
Nick just working out when Goodall got his Phase 4, Howard Marsden first asked Goodall if he wanted to buy phase 4 at 1972 Dulux Rally at Hume Weir, it took 4 to 6 months from this date for Goodall to recieve his phase 4 , so thanks to david 5 i now know above rally was held in November 1972 so add 4 to 6 months , give or take a month...so around may 1973. Cheers PK.

[pkdiorama]

The magazine is from 10 years ago and features undated photos of the car in plain red, no stickers, and owned by Rod Mann. Mann "carried out a minor restoration", saying that "virtually no new parts went on it".

The magazine goes on to say "but he did bring the car up to period racing spec", and quotes Mann as saying "It's back to where it was to meet the production car rules for 1972, where they were allowed up to 2 in lower than standard height and the exhaust sytem was free after the extractors. The roll cage and fuel tank were already in and the car had been fully seam welded when it was built".

The magazine says "When we photographed the car it was still in Rod's possession, but it has recently been bought back by David....who felt that the car wasn't up to his usual high standard....and organised for a fair amount of work to be done. Again repainted in its original Brambles Red, the car has had the clock turned back to 1973 with the addition of all the racing stickers that were there when Bowden first bought the car".

An interesting last line there! I would like to see even one photo of the car with those stickers from new. Or at least "new" in the sense that Bowden bought the car with 700 miles on the clock and had already sold it by 1974.
Yes the rules did change in 72 and allowed freer choice than in 71 production rules at Bathurst, but this was bought about by the super car scare, had the phase 4 , V8 Torana and V8 Charger raced at Bathurst in 72 it would have raced under same rule as 71 , so street exhaust would have been on phase4 not side dump pipes, Some articles state David sold the phase 4 in 74 others say 75 ? Sold or repossed ? he did go banked rupted and the car taken from him . He got it back in 1980, the car was in bad state original motor was long gone, so was 36 gal tank and other items , so far from as it left FSV Lot6 in 1973. We can safetly say the pic in AMC issue 6 page 72 is how Davids car left FSV Lot6 as bought by Keith Goodall, Goodall did remove roll cage, Cheers PK.

[PeekRPM]

Yep... got my 'real' phase four XA falcon model and the soon to be released French XA hardtop ... couldn't be happier.

[pkdiorama]

Yep... got my 'real' phase four XA falcon model and the soon to be released French XA hardtop ... couldn't be happier.got 15 XA phase 4 models, only 5 left as released by CC, one is pre release saved from bin, has boot spoiler red fire extinguser instead of yellow, just needs some repairs, dont ask how i got it..swapped alot of my old trax models for phase4s, ,
hope they do an orange XA hardtop , code 3 it to Howard Marsdens test car with masuer wheels side dump pipes etc. be nice to get some 4 door XA GTs also, also XA hardtop in white to turn into Stillwell half phase 4 . Cheers PK.

[david5]

got 15 XA phase 4 models, only 5 left as released by CC, one is pre release saved from bin, has boot spoiler red fire extinguser instead of yellow, just needs some repairs, dont ask how i got it..swapped alot of my old trax models for phase4s, ,
hope they do an orange XA hardtop , code 3 it to Howard Marsdens test car with masuer wheels side dump pipes etc. be nice to get some 4 door XA GTs also, also XA hardtop in white to turn into Stillwell half phase 4 . Cheers PK.

Don't forget the illegal disc brakes that got through scruiteneering at Sandown.

[pkdiorama]

Don't forget the illegal disc brakes that got through scruiteneering at Sandown.
Yep and on board jacks those lot6 boys always trying to sneak some illegal items past officials...acid dipping car bodies... Cheers PK.

[ROY V]

Interesting item.:D

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zBg6z6tZd90/TJ8Y5MbYt5I/ AAAAAAAABgA/pvz8nehEdIo/s1600/phase+4+badge.jpg

__________________________________________________ _
My diecast blog: http://capitaldiecastgarage.blogspot.com


Here is my XAGT-HO console badge that I purchased a few months ago...

[Nick Short]

Pah! I see boxes of those things at every swap meet I go to.........NOT REALLY.

Holy Cow! That's a sweet find!

[ROY V]

Came with a decent price tag too...$1k

Worth it in my opinion as you won't come across another too easily...

[pkdiorama]

Good buy Roy, take pride of place on desk ? If anyone has Superford mag from 1987 the final finest phase have look on page 26, pic with 2 XYs & phase 4 , I enlarged this to A4 and lightened it up , the XY with boot up must be Quick silver test mule, has rear right side door removed you can see part motorcraft decal on Gibsons XY , so has no rear seat , take alook on wheel arches in boot , two rod arms extending up, does anyone have idea what they would be ? also alot of piping in back, to thin for rollcage tubing, any ideas ? Cheers PK.

[Graeme]

Came with a decent price tag too...$1k

Worth it in my opinion as you won't come across another too easily...

I remember seeing one of these on eBay only two years or so ago, but without packaging ... didn't bid on it as I wasn't sure whether it was the real thing !

[fatty]

I wonder how many of these were bought back in the day and ended up in XA GT look a likes, Fairmonts etc...

[cdg]

I remember seeing one of these on eBay only two years or so ago, but without packaging ... didn't bid on it as I wasn't sure whether it was the real thing !

They are genuine.

__________________________________________________ _
My diecast blog: http://capitaldiecastgarage.blogspot.com

[cdg]

I wonder how many of these were bought back in the day and ended up in XA GT look a likes, Fairmonts etc...

Only a handful exist.

__________________________________________________ _
My diecast blog: http://capitaldiecastgarage.blogspot.com

[ROY V]

Mine has a part number on the back and also has the number 1 near one of the pins.

The sole production car from memory has the number 7 in this spot. Bearing in mind this badge isn't the actual one the car left the line with as it was removed when the car was fitted with AC back in the day.

I'm not sure what number David Bowdens badge has on it...

I believe there was a dozen of these badges produced initally for the production line test cars.

Of these there are only 3 that are accounted for at the moment.

Cheers

[pkdiorama]

Only a handful exist.

__________________________________________________ _
My diecast blog: http://capitaldiecastgarage.blogspot.com
just a question cdg the Mick Doohan bike Trax is releasing in legend series would you know what scale it will be ? Cheers PK.

[Graeme]

I recently uncovered a 1973 magazine article about Ford dealership B.S.Stillwell’s performance division and a young 24 year-old bloke by the familiar name of Mick Webb who was the then division manager and principal race mechanic for Bib Stillwell.

The story centres upon the dealership doing performance conversions on Ford XA Falcons supplied from Ford with the 351 2V engine option. Following the 1972 demise of Series Production touring car racing, Stillwell’s in mid-1973 apparently purchased from Ford a significant inventory of “Phase Three” equipment, from which they created a retail package consisting of 780 Holley 4V carburettor, specific 4V inlet manifold, low restriction air cleaner, ‘solid’ camshaft and valve train, and tuned extractor exhaust headers.

This package was promoted as an economical alternative to buying a new XA Falcon GT ... the customer could adapt this package to any XA-series sedan or hardtop equipped with the 351 2V engine option that included mandatory front disc brakes and limited slip differential. It was also indicated that such cars would be optioned with the four speed manual floor shift rather than the alternative three speed automatic column or floor shift. If you were working from a base Falcon 500 sedan then with the floor shift came mandatory bucket seats, sports console and floor carpeting. Recommended further options were the Sports Handling Suspension kit and the GS Rally Pack.

The car that Mick Webb provided for the story was a Yellow Glow XA Fairmont hardtop kitted out as described above. The car was track tested in its original factory tune and then again following the performance conversion. The results compared as follows :

XA Fairmont 351 2V
0-60 mph (97kph) : 8.2 sec
S/S quarter mile (0-402m) : 16.4 sec

XA Fairmont 351 BSS4V
0-60 mph : 7.1 sec
S/S quarter mile : 15.2 sec

XA Falcon GT
0-60mph : 7.7 sec
S/S quarter mile : 15.7 sec

Using a Falcon 500 hardtop as a starting point, the standard car with options was costed at $4049.00, plus an additional $695.00 for the performance conversion, the overall cost being $4744.00. The Falcon GT hardtop in basic form was listed at $4955.00.

Perhaps this item lends a little credence to Nick Short’s historical mention that BSS may have built at least one XA Falcon GT hardtop to Phase IV specifications.

[ROY V]

Howard Marsden confirmed many years ago that a Phase IV coupe was built for BS. Not complianced as one though...

[Graeme]

... but I wouldn't be surprised if BSS had the capacity to build their own interpretation. Mind you, all of the above was happening on the cusp of Ford releasing the XA Falcon GT with RPO83 features.

[Nick Short]

Thanks for that, Graeme! Very interesting, and at least more authentic than some of the dealer "Phase" cars that appeared, that were little more than an awful body kit.....

[Graeme]

It seems that Ford in the USA had its own sort of "Phase IV" story in 1970 ... following on from the NASCAR winning aero twins created at Dodge/Plymouth, it seems that Ford/Mercury decided to play the same game. However, homologation rule changes and a mid-season decision by Ford to officially withdraw from US motorsport in 1971 led to cancellation of the Ford Torino King Cobra and Mercury Cyclone 'Super' Spoiler II.

As with all legends, the story varies and I haven't personally read all there is to find, suffice to say that three King Cobra prototypes currently exist alongside one example of the 'Super' Spoiler. Here's a starting point for the curious :

http://www.dearbornflashback.com/xfiles_kingcobra. asp

And, for anybody who thinks that a VL Walkinshaw is not the prettiest thing on wheels, here are a few images of the Ford/Mercury 1970 NASCAR maybes, including a part scan of a Ford promotional brochure :

[Still ferrari fan]

Sensational, sadly they never tasted the track!
I got my paws on an old Ford magazine some time back with a lot of detail in it on the Phase 4 episode..

[pkdiorama]

Sensational, sadly they never tasted the track!
I got my paws on an old Ford magazine some time back with a lot of detail in it on the Phase 4 episode..

hi sff is the book about road phase 4 or 3 works cars ? Cheers pk

[pkdiorama]

Hope those pics of rally phase 4 got to you Graeme ? Sent them yesterday. Cheers pk.

[Graeme]

Hope those pics of rally phase 4 got to you Graeme ? Sent them yesterday. Cheers pk.

Thanks PK ... I hope this doesn't offend, but I was out at the GM Owners Day yesterday (in Perth) admiring a surprisingly good turnout of original and modified A9X Toranas, amongst other aussie and yankie GM machinery ... can't say I remember seeing any Vauxhalls though.

Opened your images this afternoon, and lost count of the number of Brambles Red XAs ... amongst them I saw a couple of cars that I had suggested be considered when I was working at Biante, namely a 'fantasy twin set' of the #1 Moffat and #8 Gibson cars had they raced in the 1972 Hardie-Ferodo 500 ... but this was prior to Classic Carlectables doing their Phase IV release ...

[pkdiorama]

No wont offend me i sit on fence now days. Although i lean towards the blue oval. Glad you got pics wasnt sure if i stuffed up. Only took pics with mobile. You must have sore head ( banging head a gainst brickwall ) trying to get something differant out to collectors. I got sick of waiting so went ahead and done it myself. The Moffat and Gibson 72 phase 4 race cars photos will get some one to place in pic at bathurst 72. Remove phase 3 and put in phase 4. Same with rally phase 4. Working on Kieth Goodall version as he got it from FSV in 73 no roll cage panhard rod rally set up. Rod Mann version next.had all number plates custom photo etched. Cheers pk.

[rex555]

Can't wait to see the photos of those car when you have completed them.

[SL/ENUT]

Neither can i wait to see these pics. Are you doing the grean road car?

[pkdiorama]

Can't wait to see the photos of those car when you have completed them.

no worries Rex still havent worked out how to post photos in forum happy to e.mail them . Cheers pk.

[rex555]

Theres no hurry, its just something to look forward to. :D

[pkdiorama]

Neither can i wait to see these pics. Are you doing the grean road car?

sl/enut re green phase 4 model, have too many red phase 4 models code 3s in differant build stages. If the 2 biante cc dont then i will have to build 3 of them. Roy has the correct paint colour. Will wait and see.be nice model . Just got my brut 33 model nice pitty about carb. Looks like another job to do. Now where can i get a cheap moffat 73 xa bathurst coupe to transplant webbers ? Cheers pk.

[pkdiorama]

Thanks david5 will give it a try soon as i get computer back, just using mobile phone now. Thanks again cheers pk.

[david5]

No worries, PM me & we'll sort it out.

[smythy17]

sl/enut re green phase 4 model, have too many red phase 4 models code 3s in differant build stages. If the 2 biante cc dont then i will have to build 3 of them. Roy has the correct paint colour. Will wait and see.be nice model . Just got my brut 33 model nice pitty about carb. Looks like another job to do. Now where can i get a cheap moffat 73 xa bathurst coupe to transplant webbers ? Cheers pk.


PM sent PK

[pkdiorama]

Thanks Smythy hope you got mine pm. Rang Graeme Stewart as to color of xb brute33 at Sandown ,as much as he can remember it was a lighter blue than the bathurst car, he does remember moffat trying to fool everyone to think the bathurst car was differant car than the one that won at sandown..Graeme thought the brut33 had 4 barrel carb till i mentioned the dvd showing webbers, too many years pass worked on to many race cars. Most of moffats cars then gibsons, has one of the turbo nissans. Sorry thats all i could find out. Im sending my certificate to get signed by Graeme and Ray Cutchie as they signed my biante certifiate years ago, have to find Pauline Moffat next.as to working on the 3 phase 4s yes he did he done all electrical work under bonnet when motor was removed,few other interesting items.. Cheers pk

[fomoco 1]

All I can say is WOW what a post. Roy big thumbs up to your work on the mag also the Phase 4 and PK it was refreshing to look at the Phase 4 story from a different angle. Two questions though, I have always wanted to know the exact location of Lot 6, is it 152 Mahoneys rd (neverfail water)?? And you mentioned Ian Stockings putting together a book on the Phase 4, is there any progress on this?