Supercar Scare all over again!

[lukey73]

Who on the forum thinks in the not to distant future we will have a repeat of the 1973-74 supercar scare again ? Seeing reports in the paper over Fords new turbo typhoon being supposedly quicker than some european cars and with the increase of these same papers taking advise from the scare monger Harold Scruby i think that is the way its going to head.


What do other forum members think ?????

[spoonster05]

The kw's in 'affordable' cars are certainly increasing dramatically, if you look back at the VS HSV cars with 195kw and think that you can get that amount in a base model car nowadays.

I suppose at least with the power increases the safety level has also risen, but it probably will head the way of the supercar scare or at the very least lead to car companies not being allowed to advertise the power output of their cars

[V8SS]

I guess the fear is that in years to come, teenagers will be able to buy a 250kw car as their first car. Obviously a lot of boy racers can already buy powerful imported japanese cars already.

[Gan88]

Originally posted by spoonster05
I suppose at least with the power increases the safety level has also risen

This is true only for the drivers of such cars. Pedestrians and motorists in more responsible cars will still be injured, maimed, or killed when a heavier, more powerful car steamrolls them.

Perhaps an introduction of an "idiot" tax (similar to that charged on smokers) will see less 400+ HP cars on the road.

[lukey73]

The reason i ask is that they were commenting on the today show this morning about the release of the typhoon, not very educated on cars mind you, but if enough people start kicking up a stink the who knows what will happen.

If harold scruby gets enough of a voice then it surely happen and that will be a bad thing for 95-99% of people who do the right thing.

[brchi17]

Originally posted by lukey73
Who on the forum thinks in the not to distant future we will have a repeat of the 1973-74 supercar scare again ? Seeing reports in the paper over Fords new turbo typhoon being supposedly quicker than some european cars and with the increase of these same papers taking advise from the scare monger Harold Scruby i think that is the way its going to head.


What do other forum members think ?????

I hear ya Lukey & too hold similar fears.

I love driving my 235kw Commodore, but when I compare it to my 98kw XF (my 1st car) & think that in 10-15years time my VY would be in the price range of a 18yr old, it really worries me.

That said, inexperience P plate driver’s in old VN Commodore’s or 900cc Daihatsu’s can be just as dangerous as I could be in my VY, if I don’t use my head when behind the wheel. I guess it all comes back to the nut behind the wheel & the attitude that they take with them onto the road.

With vehicles such as the modern day VY’s & Barra’s, one must wonder when the government is going to get serious with the licensing procedure & include defensive driving as a part of getting your license.

Do-gooders like the above mentioned, should look at the bigger picture, other than a knee-jerk band-aid fix, such as enforcing power limits or banning particular vehicles.

I guess when it’s cheaper to ban something other than actually address the problem properly (if indeed there is one) the people in power will always take the easy route. Let's hope there isn't a repeat of what occured in the early 1970's.

I’ll step down from my soap box now.

cheers. :)

[ferrari fan]

What about the Motorbikes of today!!
In my time 100 odd HP would make you worldchampion, if you could keep it upright.
Now 160HP is common for a roady

[SL/ENUT]

I thought that the Super Car Scare was 1972?.
I think it is happing since the HRT427(RIP) came out.

[Esses]

My real first car was an extremely under-powered HB Torana. 1149 cc AUTOMATIC OHV 4-cyl with NO torque & a redline of 6000 rpm - in a '67 model car. That car taught me more about judging distances, gaps & overtaking than anything else. When you've got stuff-all acceleration you HAVE to use good judgement. By contrast I had a mate whose first car was an XB 302 V8 & his attitude & judgement absolutely sucked. Hit the accelerator harder was the answer to every situation.
I think there's GREAT merit to "Power-Limiting" L & P Platers, much as Motor-Bikers are. Along the lines of 100 kw max. on L's & P's, 150 kw max for first 2 years of full license etc etc, THEN open slather.

[mincer ray]

Car's have come a long why since the 70's. With the increase in power, we have also seen an increase in safety. And it is because of safer cars that I don't believe the supercar scare is relevant anymore. Car's back then had heaps of power but the cars did not have the safety equipment modern cars have today. Car development, for petrol engined cars anyway has almost reached its peak. The biggest threat to the internal combustion engine is the price of oil and the fact that it is ultimatley going to run out. The cars we drive today will not be anything like what we drive in say 15 to 20 years. So we all better enjoy it while we can because electric/ hybrid cars won't give you the same response as a good old V8.

That's my 2 cent's worth.

[Nathan Rzepecki]

I belive for cars capable of 250 rwhp should have a special form of lisence and also the driver must go through some form of advanced driver training.

Motor bikes have had different forms of lisence for years about time cars did too.

[biante1948]

This story In the Brisbane Courier Mail, 2/11/04 on the Ford Typhoon .

SUPERFAST FORD FUELS speed row.

A FORD Falcon potentially faster than many expensive European supercars has prompted a call for vehicles to be speed limited.

The FPV Typhoon , priced at $58,950 , has so much thrust Ford has refused to release its acceleration figures because of concerns about negative reaction from the safety lobby.

Ford Performance Vehicles product planning manager Mark Behr acknowledges the decision not to release the figures was promted by recent complaints about car advertisements highlighing the maximum speeds of powerful cars.

Independent tests conducted by the Courier Mail show the car can reach 100km/h in second gear but its top speed was not found.

Pedestrian Council of Aust chairman Harold Scruby said the release this week of the turbocharged Typhoon should be the catalyst for spped governong of vehicles.

"In generations to come people will look back on this era like the Wild West when people walked around with a gun on their hips," he said.

These people(car manufacturers) are the cowboys of this century.

The FPV Typhoon is a souped-up version of the Turbo Charged Falcon XR6T.

Its four-litre, six-cylinder turbocharged engine gives it torque, or thrust, only slightly less than the $1.1 million. 5.7 litre, 10 cylinder Porsche Carrera GT.

It has more torque than a Lamborghini Gallardo and a Ferrari F430.

Mr Behr said Ford's advertising campaign, under the Performance Inc name, would work responsibly within Advertising standards Bureau's new codes of practice.

"Most vehicles are featured in static shots in our ads," he said. "And we are the only company that offers free driver training with the sale of our performance cars."

The pedestrian Council of Aust has recently had ads for the Mitsubishi Magna and the BMW Mini withdrawn after successfully complaining to the ASB.

Mr Scruby said these decisions put motor-vehicle manufacturers on notice that the Pedestrian Council would complain about any advertisement which breached the ABS code.

"What are they releasing these vehicles on our roads when the motorway speed limit is 110 km/h?"

He called for the speed-governing of vehicles and the speedos to be limited to showing 130 km/h.

RACQ external relations general manager Gary Fites said FPV's advertising was " most encouraging."

"Very often the irresponsible advertisers are those who have more mundane vehicles, not the performance car manufacturers," he said .

End of story.

I think I also read somwhere else that it had 270kws and 515 nm of torque. But don't hold me to that. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

One powerful machine and all from the Ford Inline Six Cylinder.

Sorry for the long article.:D

[GSXR1]

Originally posted by ferrari fan
What about the Motorbikes of today!!
In my time 100 odd HP would make you worldchampion, if you could keep it upright.
Now 160HP is common for a roady

Shhhh FF, they'll try and take them away from us next...:D ;)

[lukey73]

Im glad bert brought up the subject of motor cycles, the people that carry on about cars being so powerful etc keep forgetting about bikes. GSXR1 correct me if im wrong but dont most 600cc plus machines go 0-100 in something 4-5 seconds which is quicker than 99% of cars sold in australia.

I dont like the fact that someone is trying to tell me what i can and cant drive, that every car should be speed limited so that we cant drive around a problem if need be. Just to pick on a car and not a motorised vechile is very narrow minded.

Luke

[spoonster05]

I think that more driver training is needed, maybe starting in secondary schools with 15 or 16 year olds.

And then as part of the actual driving tests include a skid pan test as well as the usual defensive driving / dodging witches hats training as well.

I remember just doing the minimum 6 driving lessons with the instructor, around 30-40 hours with the folks and taking my driving test at 12.40pm, returning to the Ferntree Gully VicRoads office at 12.47 with a 92% pass, losing points for mirrors and head checks only.

Driving an old Ford ex Ambulance for work soon honed my crash avoidance skills though...

Seriously though how easy is it to get a driver's licence...

[terrine]

gee lets not get to worked up about this...big difference between the aussie road and race cars of today unlike those of the seventies that lead to the demise of one and in turn the other.
.....and i would not be surprised if the typhoon has a speed limiter
i know my GT does...at 250kph

r/peter

[toad]

I don't think we will have a repeat of the '72 supercar scare for a number of reasons.

1. The cars today although powerful are much more safely constructed, better handling/roadholding, brakes, airbags, etc etc.
2. There is much more conformity of speed on our roads now due to ridiculous levels of enforcement.
3. More restrictive licences for young people in terms of powerful cars they are able to drive.
4. Much more awareness about road safety today
5. Drink driving has been curbed to just a few idiots.
6. Much more of our arterial road system is made of safer freeways and roads in general are significantly improved on 1972.

So whilst we have more powerful cars than ever I don't see them contributing to the road toll like they did in the early 70's.

IMHO.

[biante1478]

Also, in 1972, the restrictions were applied by putting pressure on the local manufacturers with Govt fleet sales. The local manufacturers made about 80% of the new cars in Australia. These days I would think it about 30%, so the Govt doesn't have the same influence over the industry. They would have to pass legislation, which is a lot harder to do.

[GSXR1]

Originally posted by lukey73
GSXR1 correct me if im wrong but dont most 600cc plus machines go 0-100 in something 4-5 seconds which is quicker than 99% of cars sold in australia.

You're probably right.

Not sure about 0-100 times as, as far as I'm aware, this is mainly used for performance testing of cars, not bikes.

Bikes tend to use standing 400m times in my experience.

I would imagine most standard bikes over 600cc (not just sports bikes) would do in the region of low-10s to mid-12 seconds for the standing quarter mile.

[Leigh]

Originally posted by biante1948
This story In the Brisbane Courier Mail, 2/11/04 on the Ford Typhoon .

SUPERFAST FORD FUELS speed row.

A FORD Falcon potentially faster than many expensive European supercars has prompted a call for vehicles to be speed limited.

Independent tests conducted by the Courier Mail show the car can reach 100km/h in second gear but its top speed was not found.

He called for the speed-governing of vehicles and the speedos to be limited to showing 130 km/h.

.
Havn't all Ford Utes and Fairlanes been speed limited to 190 km/h for years???

The fact that these guys only did an acceleration test and not a top speed test is idiotic...

Even my stocky 202 LH Torana did 100 in second...

In any case, the supercar scare was more about Holden and Ford producing Bathurst specials that could win the race using the restricted rule book of the day.

[rex555]

Unfortunately the problem with people like Harold Scruby is that they point blank refuse to acknowledge the overwhelming fact that 75% of all pedestrian fatalities are 100% the fault of the pedestrian and something like 40% of these people are under the influence of alcohol at the time. The only restrictions placed are on drivers. Where are the education campains for the pedestrians? They don't exist.

Having recently returned from driving in Germany where powerful cars are far more common than here it is easy to see that there are 2 main failings with our system. 1) Drivers are seriously undertrained when they are allowed to go on the road and 2) Pedestrians need to be made aware of their responsibility for their own safety.

Untill a major overhaul of the road users system is undertaken, road safety campains will be nothing more than political posturing and bandaid solutions.

High powered cars are not the problem. Driver training from the 1950s is.

[biante1762]

governments love these high powered cars, with all these speed cameras around, they are laughing all the way to the bank

[HRT 1-2]

I've been concerned about the government stepping in for some time, given that the VZ HSV gets the 6ltr LS2 with entry level being 297Kw, I think we are headed to the government intervening.

Add to this, an article I read in last months Motor Mag stating that Holden are about to release a factory blower for the LS1 with retro kits to be sold via HSV, I think we are headed towards restrictions :mad:

[a9x308]

It's not the horsepower in the car, It is unfortunatly the nut behind the wheel. However while there are cars able to travel at faster than 50km per hour there will always be fatalities on our roads.

[Leigh]

Originally posted by a9x308
It's not the horsepower in the car, It is unfortunatly the nut behind the wheel. However while there are cars able to travel at faster than 50km per hour there will always be fatalities on our roads.
Sorry, but many people have been killed by cars travelling not much more than 0km/h (yes that is zero)...

[a9x308]

Very true mate. My point was just that regardless of the power of the vehicle there is always someone who will make a silly mistake and restricting horsepower is not going to change this.
As mentioned previously driver training could play a large part in reducing the tolls on our roads.

[Leigh]

Cheers mate...

There are arguments around that driver training has done nothing to curb the death rate or number of accidents in countries that have compulsory driver training...just as ABS has been proven to not lower accidents.

People have more confidence with both ABS and driver training and take more risks...

I think that bloke in country NSW has had a positive impact on young people involved in accidents etc. He has public forums for 15-18 year olds and their parents. He shows graphic pictures of actual accidents, goes through the physics in a laymans way, has 18-20 year olds who have maimed themselves and/or killed friends in accidents, and the clincher is getting parents to talk about their kids who have killed friends and/or themselves in car accidents...

Apparently not many don't shed a tear during the sessions.

Brings a touch of reality back to driving...

[a9x308]

You may well be on the right path with that one. I have been involved with vehicle rescue for a number of years now and it is a very sombering experience that young people ( and old ) can't comprehend until they are faced with it. Shock treatment may be one answer, but as road users we tend to accept the risks involved and become a little desensitised to it all.
cheers

[brchi17]

Originally posted by lcfp2297
Havn't all Ford Utes and Fairlanes been speed limited to 190 km/h for years???......

Yes Leigh, the auto Falcons have been limited to 190kph, since EF.

Not too sure about the Tickford & FPV varities, but the regular auto Fords still are (the new Ba XR series could also be different).

cheers.:)

[rex555]

Off Topic....

....but the reason the Falcons were limited to 180-190kph was that they had the longest single piece drive shaft on any car. Speeds (revs) greater that this caused nasty things to happen to it. Not what you want at nearly 200kph so more sensible to have an electronic limiter. I believe that things were changed for the AU or BA.

[Leigh]

Rex, that was exactly what I remembered too...

The point is, the journalist said they should be speed limited, but they probably are...for whatever reason...

[Dingo]

Can I offer the (probably unpopular) opinion that this is similar to blaming McDonalds and their ilk for making people in our society overweight or obese? The option is there to eat fast food (similar to driving a fast car), the effects and dangers of eating fast food have been documented and are widely known (similar to driving too fast or with too little skill), yet people still continue to eat fast food...

There would be more than a few tradesmen on this forum who agree by this credo: "A poor workman blames his tools". Would anyone else agree that this might also apply to the argument?

Or am I barking up the wrong tree? Wouldn't be the first time :D

[spoonster05]

[i]Originally posted by lcfp2297 [/i

People have more confidence with both ABS and driver training and take more risks...[/B]

The problem with ABS is a lot of people inexperienced with ABS equipped cars 'panic' when the pedal shudders under their foot and take their foot back off the brake pedal.

While the pedal shudder is different from model to model I know of a few people who have had 'minor' accidents turn into 'serious' accidents with ABS equipped cars by taking their foot off the brake when they should have left it buried to the firewall..

[lukey73]

There are some very good comments made by everyone so far and i think we are all saying the same thing in a round about way.

That yes modern cars are faster than the 70's-80's cars, yes they have alot more safety device's (ie abs,traction control), that we are heavily policed compared to when the original scare happened, and finally we dont think cars are the problem more the licencing standards as people dont know how to drive a car most just sit there and steer it the way they want to go.

As i said at the start, i am worried about certain groups who have been getting alot of publicity lately trying to influence the government into basically dumbimg down people who steer there cars around and leaving us drivers out in the cold.


If im wrong please tell me but from what i see i dont think so, well unless you take gillick seriously !

Luke

[brchi17]

Originally posted by rex555
Off Topic....

....but the reason the Falcons were limited to 180-190kph was that they had the longest single piece drive shaft on any car. Speeds (revs) greater that this caused nasty things to happen to it. Not what you want at nearly 200kph so more sensible to have an electronic limiter. I believe that things were changed for the AU or BA.

This could be part of it as well. What we heard (in the trade) was that the auto's had temperature issues if the box was run for prolonged periods above 190kph, so to prevent this, a governor was introduced.

To my knowledge (not having driving above 100kph) this is still the same with AU as it's the same auto. BA could be different (due to having the select shift facility) but I doubt it.

cheers. :)

[Gan88]

Originally posted by Dingo
Can I offer the (probably unpopular) opinion that this is similar to blaming McDonalds and their ilk for making people in our society overweight or obese? The option is there to eat fast food (similar to driving a fast car), the effects and dangers of eating fast food have been documented and are widely known (similar to driving too fast or with too little skill), yet people still continue to eat fast food...


By eating McDeath burgers you only harm yourself. But by buying gas guzzling tanks you:

1) get cancer of the wallet
2) perpetuate the need for wars to secure oil
3) pollute the environment (IC engines are horrendously inefficient and the bigger they are the worse the performance gets)
4) have a battering ram that can do more harm to normal cars in a high speed collision.

Seriously, there should be a "400HP" tax on cars that are needlessly powerful (e.g., $400 bucks per HP above 300 collected to fund things like road maintenance, emergency response teams, school based driving programs, etc.)

[Esses]

Originally posted by brchi17
This could be part of it as well. What we heard (in the trade) was that the auto's had temperature issues if the box was run for prolonged periods above 190kph, so to prevent this, a governor was introduced.

To my knowledge (not having driving above 100kph) this is still the same with AU as it's the same auto. BA could be different (due to having the select shift facility) but I doubt it.

cheers. :)

Yep, that's pretty much what my EF Owner's Manual says. As the BA still has much the same Auto (the shift thing is just the shift as I understand it) I presume that the same limit applies.
With the EF, my BIL point-blank refused to believe that his EF XR-6 Auto was (eek) Speed-Limited until I went through his Owners Manual & found it for him. MAJOR case of the grumps that his XR "only" had the same top speed as my humble GLi Wagon. The Wagon does better economy, too.:D

[singer]

Originally posted by Steve
Yep, that's pretty much what my EF Owner's Manual says. As the BA still has much the same Auto (the shift thing is just the shift as I understand it) I presume that the same limit applies.
With the EF, my BIL point-blank refused to believe that his EF XR-6 Auto was (eek) Speed-Limited until I went through his Owners Manual & found it for him. MAJOR case of the grumps that his XR "only" had the same top speed as my humble GLi Wagon. The Wagon does better economy, too.:D

Are you trying to win a Big Wooden Spoon for Sh** stirring:D

[singer]

Originally posted by Steve
My real first car was an extremely under-powered HB Torana. 1149 cc AUTOMATIC OHV 4-cyl with NO torque & a redline of 6000 rpm - in a '67 model car. That car taught me more about judging distances, gaps & overtaking than anything else. When you've got stuff-all acceleration you HAVE to use good judgement. By contrast I had a mate whose first car was an XB 302 V8 & his attitude & judgement absolutely sucked. Hit the accelerator harder was the answer to every situation.

I agree with your assessment about our mutual acquaintance. But when Daddy buys everything you just don't care.
:mad:

[Esses]

Originally posted by singer
Are you trying to win a Big Wooden Spoon for Sh** stirring:D

No, but he's a cranky old sod (60's) who just wouldn't believe me until I SHOWED him.:)

[Esses]

Originally posted by singer
I agree with your assessment about our mutual acquaintance. But when Daddy buys everything you just don't care.
:mad:

Absolutely. That's why my kids will be BUYING their first cars (with our help) but definitely putting their money in.

[Esses]

Back on topic. Some of my comments must appear old-fogey-ish, but that's what comes of having small children & being a 21-year Professional Driver. The main concern here seems to be young, inexperienced drivers in over-powered cars (which was the main excuse for the original Supercar scare) which are only getting more accessible. The best example I can give of my concern is a horrible crash that happened a year or so ago here. Singer will probably remember this one, too.

Friday afternoon in our industrial suburb - Fyshwick - & a new Statesman pulls out onto one of the main roads (Gladstone St) into what was clear road. The Lady Driver never even saw what hit her. It was a Toyota MR-2, doing about 160 kmh (in a 60 zone) round a blind bend, over a slight rise, straight into the side of the Statesman. It was being driven (?) by a young male in his early 20's with his Girlfriend alongside. He died, she was weeks in Hospital, lucky to be alive at all. The driver of the Statesman died instantly, as did 2 of 3 children in the back seat. Her Husband in the front survived, again weeks in Hospital. The point here (besides the nut behind the wheel) is that both cars were new, one twice the size of the other, both with all the latest safety devices, but sheer speed & stupidity easily overcame all that & killed 4 people, kids amongst them. The punch line is that the MR-2 wasn't even the guy's car. He was test-driving it (for over 2 hours) to the point that it had been reported stolen by the Yard concerned. He' been driving it in that manner the whole time & no, there was no "Hot Pursuit" involved. This idiot did it all himself, deliberately. Unfortunately, there's no simple solution, but keeping young drivers out of fast cars might be a start.

[singer]

Originally posted by Steve
[B]Back on topic. Some of my comments must appear old-fogey-ish, but that's what comes of having small children & being a 21-year Professional Driver. The main concern here seems to be young, inexperienced drivers in over-powered cars (which was the main excuse for the original Supercar scare) which are only getting more accessible. The best example I can give of my concern is a horrible crash that happened a year or so ago here. Singer will probably remember this one, too.

Yes I do remember. What about the VT Monaro doing 180kph++++ when she plowed into a school bus on Woolcara Lane near Captains Flat. Do you remember that?

The Bus Driver has lost his Authority (no authority no job) for being 2cm on the double yellow line antil After the coroners inquest. If you knew the road you'd also know why he was hugging the middle. RTA/Police/DOT they really don't give a sh**:mad:

[Esses]

Don't know Woolcara Lane but even Captains Flat Road ain't that wide!

[Monaro Maniac]

You've all hit the nail on the head. No matter how quick the car is if an idiot is driving then it is capable of killing. The only way to fix this is through better driver training BEFORE you get your licence and maybe a power to weight restriction like motorbikes for L and P platers.
Unfortunately there's no easy fix for this problem. On a nother note I'd like to make that idiot from the pedestrian council a hood ornerment on the bullbar of my 4X4. But that's just me.:D

[singer]

Originally posted by Monaro Maniac
You've all hit the nail on the head. No matter how quick the car is if an idiot is driving then it is capable of killing. The only way to fix this is through better driver training BEFORE you get your licence and maybe a power to weight restriction like motorbikes for L and P platers.
Unfortunately there's no easy fix for this problem. On a nother note I'd like to make that idiot from the pedestrian council a hood ornerment on the bullbar of my 4X4. But that's just me.:D

Ditto that

If not for my bullbar I'd be close to dead twice over!!!