Fastest Aussie Muscle car ... confirmed!

[hemi6]

The latest issue of Aust Muscle Car magazine (issue 18) has an article where the majority of Aussie Muscle Cars are drag raced at WSID. Only cars in stock form were allowed to compete albeit with modern rubber. Proper muscle cars like Monaros, Toranas, GT Falcons and Chargers were tested alongside HSV's and FPV/Tickfords.

As a result of this article it's now official... the fastest Aussie production car over the standing quarter (or 400m to be exact) is the E49 Charger. It just beat the 300kw HSV GTS by .02 seconds with a Corsa 3rd!!! We Charger fans haven't had such a good excuse to boast for a long time.

Not bad for a 30yr old car with 2 less pistons, 1 less gear and a much smaller engine!

Cheers
Scotty

[XU-123]

Didn't the article say it was far from standard ?

[timbo333]

:eek:

This can't possibly be a stock standard comparison.

The numbers just don't add up.

Clarification requested please.............

Timbo.

[wayno]

I'd like to know what the times were. I still think the latest generation HSV's would come out on top.

[baylissfan]

Power to weight would be on the Chargers side along with modern day tyres. I wonder where the mighty Phase III finished in all this.

I imagine that the 30 year old dunlop aquajets as used on the phase III, not sure on the E49 used but they were not that crash hot compared to modern tyres.

Does anyone have the times?

[wayno]

If I owned one of these beautiful old muscle cars with original tyres on there's no way I'd sacrifice them on acceleration runs! ;)

[baylissfan]

Yeah I agree with that.

A friend on mine has a set of aquajets. and they only go on the car for concourse shows.

suspension as well, I wonder if that was all stock or modified by pedders, etc.

Still it's a tall order for a 30 year old car beating a modern day HSV GTS.

[hemi6]

The article said "some care were more 'stock' than others". He didn't refer to the winning E49. In fact, whilst I don't know the owner personally, I do know the car. Apart from modern rubber, blueprinting and tuning the motor a year or so ago, the car is original. It's a genuine E49 so George (the owner) didn't want to bugger around with it too much.

Here's some elapsed times:
E49 Charger ..........13.394
HSV VX GTS 300 .........13.398
CSV VT 2 Strada SiR .........13.434
Tickford TE 50 Series 111 - 250kw .......13.975
HSV GTS Coupe 300 .........14.264
Falcon BA XR6 Turbo ........ 14.334
Falcon XY GTHO Phase 3 ........... 14.778
Torana LJ GTR XU-1 ....... 14.788
Falcon BA Mk11 GT ............... 14.831

Whilst this isn't all of 'em, it certainly settles a few arguements (or in some cases, starts em!).

I just wish there were more GTHO fans at work. The ones we have are avoiding me since the article came out ;)

Cheers

[15247]

Even when the E49 first came out, they were the fast australian production car. Faster over the quarter mile than the GTHO. All be it by a few tenths. But in racing thats all it takes to be a winner or a whinger. Go the Charger.

[brchi17]

Originally posted by hemi6
......Apart from modern rubber, blueprinting and tuning the motor a year or so ago, the car is original....

Well a blueprinted motor isn't exactly std then is it ???

For a comparison as such to be taken as legit, you've got to compare apples with apples. Now I know that over 30years of vehicle development this may be hard.

In this case all that can really be said is that from a group of cars, some modified & some not, the E49 was quickest. Not that it’s the fastest Aussie muscle car, as they isn’t exactly true now is it.

cheers. :)

[castkrazy]

I thought this link to some info on the E49 Charger may be of interest to you guy's concerning the subject here . :)

http://www.fastlane.com.au/Features/Charger_histor y.htm


Cheers
Jim .

[Leigh]

I read the article, and took the results with the grain of salt they deserve...

If the older cars had original rubber, the rubber would be so hard today that there'd be limited traction, with modern rubber they get more traction than when they were brand new!

So ignoring all other factors (including the use of modern fuel), the tyres alone will cause so much difference that the times are basically meaningless...

For me, its what the car can do directly from the factory...and only the old copies of magazines can tell you that...

Who cares if the car does a 13 on modern tyres today when it could only do 15's when brand new...

[15247]

If your talking about the charger doing 13's now on modern rubber, it done low 14's when brand new. Wheels magazine done the comparison. Still faster than anything esle in its day. And im sure the new HSV's and tickford fords would have had top of the line rubber on that day of testing. If the charger did have some mod's done to it, for a six cylinder its still pretty quick. Are Tickford V8's standard or are they modified? Same as the HSV. Are they the same V8 you get in a normal V8 commadoor? And like i said in the earlier post "a few tenth's is all it takes to be a winner or a whinger". And the whingers are the loudest.
Come on hemi6 lay into em mate.
Besides, it is a good article in the magazine. A good discussion topic, but lets not anylize it too bits. Just accept it that the charger was the quickest on the day and still stands as australia's quickest production car of its day.

[BATHURSTFAN]

One other factor, it wasn' the same person driving each car was it?

[wayno]

This is a question that will never be answered adequately. What sort of fuel were the leaded cars running? It still makes a cracking read though!

[baylissfan]

I think most people who post in here are not whinging or having a go at the Charger.

I for one think it is an Australian icon along with the A9X, Phase I, 2 & 3 Falcons, GTR - XU1's and GTS Monaros. I would love to have a E49 sitting in my garage and it would be second only to a Phase III.

One thing I find amazing is how a non modified car can drop over a second down the 1/4 mile with tyres and blueprinting. I gather the blueprinted engine would still run the tripple webbers, same intake, cam, head would be exactly the same as is the exhuast system as back in the early 70's.

Also from my memory both the E49 and Phase III GTHO pulled a 14.4 down the 1/4 back in the early 70's.

As far as fuel goes, Standard and Super is what was used. I assume it would be a higher octane rating over even High Octane Premium fuels as the cars ran higher compression back then compared to nowdays.

At the end of the day the Charger is a outstanding car and IMHO a real Australian icon.

[singer]

Originally posted by brchi17
Well a blueprinted motor isn't exactly std then is it ???

For a comparison as such to be taken as legit, you've got to compare apples with apples. Now I know that over 30years of vehicle development this may be hard.

In this case all that can really be said is that from a group of cars, some modified & some not, the E49 was quickest. Not that it’s the fastest Aussie muscle car, as they isn’t exactly true now is it.

cheers. :)

Brad,

Blueprinting was standard on the E49:(

[Ford Boy]

For the non mechanical (me), wht does blueprinting do?

[TBVX05]

How can the E49 do 13.3 now when it did 14s back in 1972. It seems that the owner has done a bit of work to it. Where is Chrysler now?

Anyway you cant compare old cars with new cars.

[baylissfan]

Blue printing basically get all your tolerances, balancing, etc pretty much spot on in an engine.

It is the sort of stuff that happens with a high perfomance engine like a GTHO, A9X, etc.

Not the run of the mill engine that comes off the production line.

Blue printed engine have more care and is more exact over the standard engine thrown into a Commdore, Falcon, etc

[wayno]

It costs a pretty penny to have done as well. Extreme example, but the VS GTS-R with the blue printed engine package cost an extra 15 thousand or something like that.
Hell of a lot of money for an extra 15-20 kw.

[sleepy]

yes blue printing just means that the engine has been built within the range of all the specifications... piston clearance ring gap bore finish bearing crush (nip) bearing clearances valve timing and so on and so on.. any engine built by a decent engine reconditioner could be classified as blueprinted it wont neccesarily help it horsepower wise but it will help it to stay together and last longer..from memory the e49 was the fastest aussie production car up to the old 100 mph mark (faster than the phase 3 even) but after that the extra cubes kicked in and the phase 3 had a higher top end speed. as far as production cars go the muscle cars from the seventies were raw horsepower(big cams big valves plenty of carburetion and they reved like all hell it was also very easy to squeeze a few more neddies out of them (cylinder head mods etc) considering the technology that goes into todays cars we havent come all that far.. you cant beat the feeling of a seventies car pulling hard from 3500 revs through to 7000+rpm..love it admittedly they were agricultural compared to todays cars but you had to drive them..boy racers today think there vn vp vrs etc go hard but the things run out of breath before they even reach 5000 rpm this may insite a fair amount of debate but its my opinion..

[JD350]

Love the cars from the late 60's and 70's. Have a healthy respect for them all, grew up around them and even got to drive or be driven in all the greats of the era.
The Falcon GTHO was always marketed as the worlds fastest 4 door, but as most new the E49 was the fastest out of the box (so to speak) over the 1/4 mile in Australia.
14.4 to the Falcons 14.7.

Low 13's for what is supposedly a stock E49, not likely.

[brchi17]

Originally posted by singer
....Blueprinting was standard on the E49:(

I guess there's advantages in being there at the time then isn't there :D !!!

I was understanding that this E49 was further modified, that it's stock form, hence my comments.

cheers.

[ferrari fan]

A good friend of mine ran a 6 cil Torana at the racetrack that was stroked Ford pistons and rods, Full Erskine? portes, flowbench tested heads, big carburation, blueprinted,(Very carefully put together,lots of time is spend doing this) and this torrie was faster (Acceleration etc) than the VL's that were running here at the time as the bees knees in WA (Tim Slako, Alf Barbagallo) These two could not believe the Tornado was that quick and (only) had a six! :D
They were on slicks and the Torry was on (scubbed) street tyres
all comes down to HP versus weight etc.

[15247]

The quicker times might also come down to reaction time at the lights. May be the charger driver was a regular drag racer and had his starts down pat. A few tenths saved on the start brings down the final numbers. As the old drag racing saying goes,
" He who snooze's looser's"

[wayno]

In drag racing reaction times are seperate to elapsed times. That's why you sometimes see a driver with a faster et lose the race.

[gab73]

No more myths
an e 49 was clocked by wheels when first released at 14 .4.
real horsepower was about 260-270 hp not 302.
terminal speed at the end of 400 mtrs 103 .5 mph.
a charger weighs in at 3100 pounds
average driver 150 to 200 pounds.
3300 pounds total
a 103.5 mph terminal speed should equate 12.9
now things like clutch slip ,wheelspin,inexperienced driver pollute times.
I know of firts hand that a 13.1 was achieved on a totally stock e49 on good rubber,the driver really taking of hard (sidestepping the clutch at 4800).
makes u wonder the quality of the drivers testing those cars.
there is a lot of power to be found in changing jets and emulsion tubes.trumpet length.those familiar with the webber carburettors would be aware that each carby has 26 jets on its own.
another car i found intersting was th 2 bbl rt is stated as running 17.2.Well if the vh pacer ran 15.6 with identical engine, the charger is a lot lighter yet they claim 17.2. real time is 15.0.
cheers.

[Nick Short]

How do you calculate ET from terminal speed? Surely it depends on the power delivery of the engine, as acceleration isn't linear?

[gab73]

i use a slide power speed calculator produced by moroso in the us.
ive used this for many years and has proved accurate to the tenth

[Esses]

Let me get this straight, a 30 yo car, giving away cubes, cylinders, gears, technology & refinement BEATS the best of todays crop, & some are still complaining? I call that a triumph of great original design, power-to-weight ratio & of course, driving, over modern technology.
I've always found it wonderful that the Charger could beat the Phase III, made for great stirring opportunities, too.:) As for comparisons, of course you can compare old & new. It's done all the time in all walks of life. How the hell else would you know whether or not anything (from cars to computers) was better than before, or not?

[JD350]

Calculations (http://www.slowgt.com/Calc1.htm)

This site has a whole range of calculations, remembering these and other calculations are in ideal situations, with ideal conditions and everything at an optimum.

[JD350]

Originally posted by Steve
Let me get this straight, a 30 yo car, giving away cubes, cylinders, gears, technology & refinement BEATS the best of todays crop, & some are still complaining? I call that a triumph of great original design, power-to-weight ratio & of course, driving, over modern technology.
I've always found it wonderful that the Charger could beat the Phase III, made for great stirring opportunities, too.:) As for comparisons, of course you can compare old & new. It's done all the time in all walks of life. How the hell else would you know whether or not anything (from cars to computers) was better than before, or not?

Not gearing the E49 runs a 3.5 diff ratio, helps to get it off the line.

Always said it was an awesome effort back in the 70's that Australia had cars running mid to low 14's, not a patch on the yank stuff at the time, but this is what legends are made of.

[singer]

Originally posted by Steve
Let me get this straight, a 30 yo car, giving away cubes, cylinders, gears, technology & refinement BEATS the best of todays crop, & some are still complaining? I call that a triumph of great original design, power-to-weight ratio & of course, driving, over modern technology.
I've always found it wonderful that the Charger could beat the Phase III, made for great stirring opportunities, too.:) As for comparisons, of course you can compare old & new. It's done all the time in all walks of life. How the hell else would you know whether or not anything (from cars to computers) was better than before, or not?

I for one, would like cars to be free of computers, so that I can repair them myself, rather than taking them to a motor technician who plugs in a diagnostic comter to interegate the cars on board computers.

To repair a car now days, you need a degree in electrical engineering. A traditional mechanic is becoming somewhat of a dinosaur as they can't afford the sophisticated diagnostic equipment & the ongoing training necessary Even if they have this equipment, faults are frequently misdiagnosed. So you end up paying though the nose until you can find someone who has come across the problem beforehand & worked out how to repair it.

Most faults in modern cars can be traced back to the electronic componentry

[Esses]

Originally posted by JD350
Not gearing the E49 runs a 3.5 diff ratio, helps to get it off the line.

Always said it was an awesome effort back in the 70's that Australia had cars running mid to low 14's, not a patch on the yank stuff at the time, but this is what legends are made of.

By "gears" I meant the actual gear-box. As in a 4-speed versus today's 5 & 6-speeders.

[Esses]

Originally posted by singer
I for one, would like cars to be free of computers, so that I can repair them myself, rather than taking them to a motor technician who plugs in a diagnostic comter to interegate the cars on board computers.

To repair a car now days, you need a degree in electrical engineering. A traditional mechanic is becoming somewhat of a dinosaur as they can't afford the sophisticated diagnostic equipment & the ongoing training necessary Even if they have this equipment, faults are frequently misdiagnosed. So you end up paying though the nose until you can find someone who has come across the problem beforehand & worked out how to repair it.

Most faults in modern cars can be traced back to the electronic componentry

Couldn't agree more. I'm still surprised (& happy) that the little '89 Corolla/Nova we recently bought actually has a carburettor. Something old-fashioned! Now I just need a SAAS Boss-kit for the Wooden Sports Wheel I have up in the shed, a matching gear-knob, my old VDO Tacho fitted & I can make-believe I'm back in my Mini!:D IF I can ever get it off Wifey!

[JD350]

Originally posted by Steve
By "gears" I meant the actual gear-box. As in a 4-speed versus today's 5 & 6-speeders.

Oh ok, now I get it.
Having said that, doesn't mean that the 5-6 speed has an advantage over the 3 speed over the 1/4 mile, remembering that it is getting the gearing right to maximise the torque of the engine rather than having gearing for town driving or open road.

Haven't looked into it myself as do not know what ratio gears used in the E49 box would be interesting to note.

[Esses]

Originally posted by JD350
Oh ok, now I get it.
Having said that, doesn't mean that the 5-6 speed has an advantage over the 3 speed over the 1/4 mile, remembering that it is getting the gearing right to maximise the torque of the engine rather than having gearing for town driving or open road.

Haven't looked into it myself as do not know what ratio gears used in the E49 box would be interesting to note.

Agreed, but the general rule in road cars seems to be when you get an extra gear "on top", lower the diff. ratio for better acceleration. eg: our 2 XF's & EA had 2.77 diffs (4-speed manual & 3-speed autos) but our EF with the BW 4-speed Auto has the 3.25 diff, & it really shows in the acceleration!

[ferrari fan]

One would not ask their loved grandparents to do the 100mtr dash to see if they still could match their best time 30/40 odd years back!!
Why do it to the Charger or XY GT?
The times were set way back and are still good enough to overpower most modern day whizz bang glitter boom box:cool:
Side stepping the clutch at 4800 rmp?? Not in my classic without me blowing a fuse ;)

[gab73]

E49 4 spd
1-2.82
2-1.84
3-1.32
4-1-1

std 4 spd
1-2.82
2-1.94
3-1.32
4-1-1

[Esses]

Originally posted by ferrari fan
[B]One would not ask their loved grandparents to do the 100mtr dash to see if they still could match their best time 30/40 odd years back!!
Why do it to the Charger or XY GT?
The times were set way back and are still good enough to overpower most modern day whizz bang glitter boom box:cool:
Side stepping the clutch at 4800 rmp?? Not in my classic without me blowing a fuse

Maybe because my 70 yo Dad (now a GREAT-Grand-Father) would blow a gasket at raising a jog, while a mint condition MACHINE will still do what it was designed to do.:)

[JD350]

GTS gear ratios:

Ratio 1 2.66:1
Ratio 2 1.78:1
Ratio 3 1.30:1
Ratio 4 1.00:1
Ratio 5 0.74:1
Ratio 6 0.50:1

E49 4 spd
1-2.82
2-1.84
3-1.32
4-1-1

GTS 300kW 1710 kg
Charger 225 kW 1372 kg.

The GTS runs a 3.90 diff compared to 3.5 for the Charger, now allowing for tyre size ie GTS 19 inch to the Charger 14 in, it would appear that the Charger has gearing advantage as well as power to weight.
To ensure correct calculation of the gearing ned to tyre dimensions of the Charger.
Anyone got the actual tyre size for the Charger ie need to know the ratio aspect of the wall, eg: GTS runs a 19 in 245/35 Tyre
the Charger has a 14 x 7inch rim what dimensions the tyre?

[ferrari fan]

Originally posted by JD350
GTS gear ratios:

Ratio 1 2.66:1
Ratio 2 1.78:1
Ratio 3 1.30:1
Ratio 4 1.00:1
Ratio 5 0.74:1
Ratio 6 0.50:1

E49 4 spd
1-2.82
2-1.84
3-1.32
4-1-1

GTS 300kW 1710 kg
Charger 225 kW 1372 kg.

The GTS runs a 3.90 diff compared to 3.5 for the Charger, now allowing for tyre size ie GTS 19 inch to the Charger 14 in, it would appear that the Charger has gearing advantage as well as power to weight.
To ensure correct calculation of the gearing ned to tyre dimensions of the Charger.
Anyone got the actual tyre size for the Charger ie need to know the ratio aspect of the wall, eg: GTS runs a 19 in 245/35 Tyre
the Charger has a 14 x 7inch rim what dimensions the tyre?

No need for excuses; the Charger was first ;winners are grinners

[JD350]

It's not about excuses, fantastic for the Charger.

Just exploring and out of interest following up circumstances.

[gab73]

goodyear grand rally ER 70 14

[JD350]

Originally posted by gab73
goodyear grand rally ER 70 14

Thanks

[ferrari fan]

All good:)I just love it that at least 2 of the early 70's muscle cars that were for sale still trounse the modern machines at the 400 mtr's
How good were these!!


How is it that at the drags the fast ones have these huge tyres on that grow during the centrifugal force and run these awsome times?

[JD350]

Originally posted by ferrari fan
All good:)I just love it that at least 2 of the early 70's muscle cars that were for sale still trounse the modern machines at the 400 mtr's
How good were these!!


How is it that at the drags the fast ones have these huge tyres on that grow during the centrifugal force and run these awsome times?
It is all in the gearing, they are able to calculate the tyre growth and therefore run the appropriate gearing. Sounds simple but there is quite a bit that goes into it.