Baird and Dumbrell..

[dwarfs]

Most of us saw this shocker accident in race 3 and on most forums every-body seems to be bagging Dumbrell over the accident.. Why ??

I was sitting on the hill just leading up to turn 1 and got a very good look at what actually happened..

From what i saw Ellery got loose on the top but managed to get back on with out to much trouble. Whincup ( running 10th ) then did the same thing. When Whincup rejoined he was just infront of Baird. Baird moved over to the right to avoid Whincup who was trying to regain speed. Baird thought he had the line covered to run into turn 1 with-out letting another car through..

Paul Dumbrell at that time had 1/4 of his car beside Baird . Baird moved over and Dumbrell got the back wheel on the grass , which then sent him side-ways into Baird . Baird was sent flying back-wards into the barrier and Dumbrell hit the wall hard ..

It was just McConvilles bad luck that he was caught up in it too..

To me this was just a racing accident and was not Dumbrell or Bairds fault...

What do you guys think of this ????


cheers

[wayno]

Thanks for your view of the incident. TV pretty much missed the start of the incident between these two so it's nice to hear an eye witness account. Conditions looked pretty awful for race cars on slick tyres but I really can't comment.
I'd like to say the officials would be in the best place to make the decision (stop laughing). Bet Ambrose would have got away with it though.

[b sharp]

After the stack both drivers shook hands as if there was no hard feelings no agro at all so thay didn't seem to think anything other than that it was a racing incedent either. (someone need some cash) ;)

[dwarfs]

From what i have just read off another forum Paul Dumbrell will face reckless driving charges...

He has pleaded not guilty but AVESCO etc will follow up on the charges put against Paul Dumbrell...
- - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - -- - - -- - - - -= -- - - - - - - - - - - - - cant see how Paul could take full blame for this accident...??:(


cheers

[VXfan]

Are these officials blind?!!! If anything,Baird gave Whincup more room than was necessary and in doing so,gave Dumbrell nowhere to go but off the track!!!
Seems to me if u bump someone off the track (Lowndes/Ambrose) u get away with it but an accident is called dangerous driving??

[brchi17]

From what I saw from on the telly, Baird hit the brakes to avoid Ellery (who was sliding off in the dirt), Dumbrell went right to avoid ramming Baird (he couldn't go Left as Ellery was sliding over there) & then as Baird was trying to avoid Ellery, he (Baird) squeezed Dumbrell into the pit lane Armco, causing Dumbrell to bounce off it like a tennis ball back into Biard, thus resulting in one of the most spectacular crashes in memory.

If Dumbrell is guilty of dangerous driving, then so too is Baird (for squeezing Dumbrell) & Ellery (for not showing due caution when rejoining the track). And don’t get me started on those two Lowndes / Ambrose incidents.

Let’s not forget that Todd Kelly got a measly $5k fine for what was in my book, a worse offence. Remembering TK rammed Morris, when he failed to slow on the back straight (this could have been avoided by simply slowing down - the SC boards were out remember).

However Dumbrell really did not have enough time to do anything other than what he did – remember we’re taking about decisions that were made in a tenth of a second.

In this instance, I’d like the officials to suggest that if Dumbrell was dangerous & reckless then, what were the other options that he could have done (but didn’t) to prevent such an incident.

As I think there isn’t anything else he could have done.

cheers. :)

[wayno]

Read today about Dumbrell being charged and was outraged. Good to see the AVESCO pledge to bring to consistency to the officiating has worked! :rolleyes:

[Martin Thomas]

That is unbelievible.. Did anyone else notice Ambrose was going to keep racing when lowndes leaned on him? As Ambrose came back onto the track it was only because the car 'crossed up' that he backed off.
Dead set, cars flying everywhere because of lack of traction and Dumbrell cops the wrath.

[awawaw]

from my point of view i think baird and dumbrell had more than enough room to go round ellery, dumbrell could of waited instead tried to go up the inside of baird half on the grass, one of his back wheels looked like it snagged and throw him into baird. if he hadnt tried to pass him there it wouldnt of happened.

[REDVRSS]

I think its OUTRAGEOUS Mr Dumbrell is being pinged for this 'Racing incident'.

Paul had 1/10 second to react, His view of Whincup on the left may have been obscured by the WPS car, may have kept his foot on the noise pedal not realising Bairdy was gonna swerve and back off to avoid the Whincup Car, then all too late he's on the grass trying to avert disaster which in the end turned out a monumental shunt.

I suspect AVESCO is trying to keep Mr Gore, who has his fingers in Franchises, the Safety car and the V8 Supercard, sweet so he doesnt pull the pin.

A joke if Paul is penalised in ANY way.


Cheers,

Paul.

PS. Great win for #51 GO MURPH!

[spoonster05]

Originally posted by wayno
Read today about Dumbrell being charged and was outraged. Good to see the AVESCO pledge to bring to consistency to the officiating has worked! :rolleyes:

I agree with you Wayno..

Did anybody read todays article in the Herald Sun where Bairds Falcon had turned into a Holden..

[wayno]

Originally posted by spoonster05

Did anybody read todays article in the Herald Sun where Bairds Falcon had turned into a Holden..

Yep. Be funny if it didn't reflect the general media's attitude to the series.

[A9L]

Read today about Dumbrell being charged and was outraged. Good to see the AVESCO pledge to bring to consistency to the officiating has worked!



Well I thought this year we might see some equality, but no, Ambrose can still do no wrong. And then charging Dumbrell ? What the !!!

[castkrazy]

Originally posted by brchi17
From what I saw from on the telly, Baird hit the brakes to avoid Ellery (who was sliding off in the dirt), Dumbrell went right to avoid ramming Baird (he couldn't go Left as Ellery was sliding over there) & then as Baird was trying to avoid Ellery, he (Baird) squeezed Dumbrell into the pit lane Armco, causing Dumbrell to bounce off it like a tennis ball back into Biard, thus resulting in one of the most spectacular crashes in memory.

If Dumbrell is guilty of dangerous driving, then so too is Baird (for squeezing Dumbrell) & Ellery (for not showing due caution when rejoining the track). And don’t get me started on those two Lowndes / Ambrose incidents.

Let’s not forget that Todd Kelly got a measly $5k fine for what was in my book, a worse offence. Remembering TK rammed Morris, when he failed to slow on the back straight (this could have been avoided by simply slowing down - the SC boards were out remember).

However Dumbrell really did not have enough time to do anything other than what he did – remember we’re taking about decisions that were made in a tenth of a second.

In this instance, I’d like the officials to suggest that if Dumbrell was dangerous & reckless then, what were the other options that he could have done (but didn’t) to prevent such an incident.

As I think there isn’t anything else he could have done.

cheers. :)


These comments are exactly as I saw the accident too , How Dumbrell can be blamed for the accident is beyond me !! :(

[KRAKA05]

Paul being charged for that is a disgrace.

[awawaw]

just watched it agian. dumbrell was a few car lengths behind baird when he slowed for Whincup. baird gave whincup room, maybe dumbell shouldnt of tried to pass under baird when he was running out of road. baird didnt squeeze dumbrell. baird was holding line when dunbrell taged him.

[xtreem2001]

If you look at the accident from AVESCO's angle then Dumbrell is the obvious scapegoat. Remember his team boss (Laughing Larry)
has already shunned the powers that be by selling his Level one licences and giving plenty of lip late last year. I dont think Dumbrell is at fault. He is just the pawn, to get at Larry. The cracks are starting to appear and I know others on this forum have laughed at my suggestions that the V8's are in self destruct
mode but it has happened in Formula one and I think the signs are starting to show in AVESCO too. Ford were struggling a few years back and it took a lot to get them to show an interest in this catergory. Now it seems the Champ can do no wrong, and if
you are lucky enough to be in a Ford chances are you wont be penalised. If Dumbrell is guilty then so is the useless goose who refused to put the safety car out in very dangerous conditions so that television rights could be adhered to. The whole show is going backwards quicker than Bairds ford did on the weekend.
On a lighter note it was great to see Kim Jones turn the other cheek when his boss got clobbered. He had no idea it was his son who flipped Brad into the wall when he smiled politely for the cameras and said he was more controlled these days. Yeah Right
Wonder if he remembered that when his team owner arrived back in the pits and they went into a full on yelling match. Sorry Kim, you have just shown your true colours. You have no ethics.

[Tumbo]

Baird moves to give Whincup room, and Dumbrell moved over, next thing baird moved over even further as Whincup moved further across. If anyone is to be blamed for thi "racing incident" it is Baird.....but considering the way champion Marcus got off w/ his "indiscretion" then I can't see how anyone can be blamed for this....perhaps AVESCO are just annoyed cause Murph guessed it would rain and no-one took any notice.........

[b sharp]

Where do AVSCO get off, don't you think the two teams involved were penilised enough with the damage bill and the stress off getting the cars ready for the next race.
How dose a fine help the situation, accedents happen when your driving a car at top speed in the wet racing another driver who dosent want you to pass him.
It has now become a crime to race, if i wanted to see a super cruise i would go to the summernats in canberra.
V8 supercar need a reg ragan "BRING BACK THE RACING" there is already a Ashtons Circus, Stardust Circus, now we have the AVSCO Circus.:rolleyes:

[dwarfs]

Originally posted by Tumbo
Baird moves to give Whincup room, and Dumbrell moved over, next thing baird moved over even further as Whincup moved further across. If anyone is to be blamed for thi "racing incident" it is Baird.....but considering the way champion Marcus got off w/ his "indiscretion" then I can't see how anyone can be blamed for this....perhaps AVESCO are just annoyed cause Murph guessed it would rain and no-one took any notice......... Going on what you say it would seem Whincup would be at fault because Whincup moved over further when re-joining the track.

Its not like Baird wanted to drive staright into Whincup so he would have to move over as-well.

It was just Dumbrell's bad luck that he was left with no-where to go..

I think NZ change-able weather should take most the blame...
:D

cheers

[Leigh]

Originally posted by awawaw
just watched it agian. dumbrell was a few car lengths behind baird when he slowed for Whincup. baird gave whincup room, maybe dumbell shouldnt of tried to pass under baird when he was running out of road. baird didnt squeeze dumbrell. baird was holding line when dunbrell taged him.
When the car in front of you hits the brakes in such a high speed section of the track, where do you go?

I think Dumbrell took the only option...

Dwarfs, Exactly what I was thinking...didn't Dumbrell get charged for "Dangerous re-entry" a few years ago that caused a similar pile-up...I would think that this incident was similar, only the dangerously re-entering vehicle didn't end up in the ensueing incident...

xtreem2001, You are right in that there is more to this than meets the eye, but as I've said elsewhere, the sky is not falling down...

Cheers

[dwarfs]

Ok from what we have seen on TV etc , we know Dumbrell should not have those charges put against him.

What im thinking is that Race-control have looked at the in-car camera's and have seen something we havent...


cheers

[Martin Thomas]

What was the reason for letting Ambrose/Lowndes/Richards incidents slide? 'They should have given each other more room, no penalty, racing incident'. This on a dry track, with only 2 cars involved in the incident by seasoned campaigners.
Add water,slicks, sliding cars, more cars, wet verge and confusion and all of a sudden you can single one person out???
The stewards set the tone when they judge the first incident of any race meeting. After Lowndes/Ambrose were left alone, Dumbrell had every right to try to pass Dumbrell (if he did)
They have to approach it like a footy umpire tries, set the tone and stick to it....

[A9L]

How come its always jones cars on there lid, 3rd time I think

[timman]

50/50 i think the track would have been greasy as it had started raining i think. there have been many incidents where a car has got its back wheel in the dirt and hit the car next to it for example.
winterbottom and tander at bathurst last year. ingall and skaife and eastern creek 2003 i think. but it happens and it was just in the wrong place and wrong time. penalty would be a joke as i watched is plenty of times sunday night and i coudn't say that it was all dumbrels fault

[roboneill]

Personally, i think no-one is at fault, you have a car (Whincup) come back onto the WET circuit after sliding off, Baird looks as though he moves over initially and then some more when Whincup returns on the circuit and he probably gets off the gas a bit in case whincup goes across in front, dumbrell who probably in still on the gas as he is most likely concentrating on Baird and not seeing whincup, then realises baird has slowed moves to the inside even further to avoid Baird and well everyone kows the rest.

No one at fault, Avesco is wrong in charging Dumbrell and will most likely get off.

But again we all assume as we ARMCHAIR experts do and have our say, at the end of the day a split second decision can make you a hero or zero..


As far as lowndesy and Ambrose, that just racing fellas they got a bit form the other and ended up penalising themselves. Good to watch like the old days


I reckon Lowndesy is getting pretty excited with what he has under the bonnet. Making mistakes he normally wouldn't.

i reckon it will be a 4 way fight this year, maybe 5.
Murph, Skaife, Ambrose, Ingall and Lowndes.

[wayno]

Originally posted by lcfp2297
...didn't Dumbrell get charged for "Dangerous re-entry" a few years ago that caused a similar pile-up...

I think he got done at the GP for dangerously re entering the track when he took out Paul Morris.
I think in the incident Paul tried to avoid heavy braking as the track conditions and tyres were probably not exactly right for this kind of manouver. My gut feeling says he might cop it when he goes up simply because he drives for Larry. Larry is a whingeing pain in the posterior and not the most beloved man by the authorities. I think this might count against young Paul.
Hope I'm wrong. I know Marcus "my farts smell like the botanical gardens" Ambrose wouldn't even have been charged in the first place.

[b sharp]

If Dumbrell is penilised just to get back at Larry then the officials in question should be stood down.
You cant penalise someone to get back at another.
This is a profesional sport not a school yard game.

[Leigh]

Originally posted by wayno
I think he got done at the GP for dangerously re entering the track when he took out Paul Morris.
I think in the incident Paul tried to avoid heavy braking as the track conditions and tyres were probably not exactly right for this kind of manouver.
That's the incident I was reffering to. My point being, Dumbrell went off, kept momentum, re-entred and Morris took him out. Morris would have seen this taking place and could have left more room...

In the current situation, Whincup went off, kept momentum, re-entered, but this is where it changes...if Baird HAD NOT taken evasive action, Whincup would have to charged based on the Dumbrell F1 precedent...but instead, Baird takes evasive action, Dumbrell takes evasive action and the incident occured...

The other one I'd like to see reviewed is Bright's re-entry onto the circuit near the flip-flop (turns 3-4?)...he came to a stop and pulled back out in front of half the field, nearly causing several accidents and casuing at least on off...he should have waited for the whole field to file passed...:rolleyes:

[the_goldie]

Originally posted by lcfp2297
That's the incident I was reffering to. My point being, Dumbrell went off, kept momentum, re-entred and Morris took him out. Morris would have seen this taking place and could have left more room...

In the current situation, Whincup went off, kept momentum, re-entered, but this is where it changes...if Baird HAD NOT taken evasive action, Whincup would have to charged based on the Dumbrell F1 precedent...but instead, Baird takes evasive action, Dumbrell takes evasive action and the incident occured...

The other one I'd like to see reviewed is Bright's re-entry onto the circuit near the flip-flop (turns 3-4?)...he came to a stop and pulled back out in front of half the field, nearly causing several accidents and casuing at least on off...he should have waited for the whole field to file passed...:rolleyes:

Yeah I saw that Bright re-entry and thought WTF! I was surprised nobody got cleaned up - like you said he should have waited or at least re-entered another way. Didn't he reverse back onto the track and then spin it around?

[dwarfs]

Originally posted by the_goldie
Yeah I saw that Bright re-entry and thought WTF! I was surprised nobody got cleaned up - like you said he should have waited or at least re-entered another way. Didn't he reverse back onto the track and then spin it around? Bright reversed on to the track in-front of a whole heap of cars and then done the same thing again and poor Dumbrell almost collected Bright but had his Brain in gear unlike bright and avioded him just by the smallest gap..

Bright then spun it around and carried on.. Bright ???WTF...:(


cheers

[dwarfs]

LP is going to step in and defend Paul Dumbrell on the reackless driving charges that have been put against him...

I say GO FOR IT !! i mean he cant lose..


cheers

[awawaw]

dont forget they have the incar video to view too. i still dont think dumbell should of tried to pass. he should of backed off since he was running out of the black stuff.

[xtreem2001]

Perkins has raised an interesting defence for Dumbrell. He has pointed out that when a car is being overtaken (Baird) that car MUST hold its line and not squeeze the other car once it reaches the B pillar. Larry has viewed the incar cameras and obviously believes his driver is in the clear.
Craig Gores comments in regard to Dumbrell having his licence revoked is way out of line. People in glass houses should never
throw stones. I dont think any team owner has the right to make those sort of comments as it can only lower the overall standard and certainly WPS doesn't have the runs on the board to dictate who should be allowed to compete and who shouldn't.
This could get very messy and I think now is a good time for AVESCO to pull a few oversized ego's back into line.

[badboyau69]

I agree with just about everyone on this post that Paul Dumbrell should not be on a reckless driving charge. I watched it on sunday and it looked to me that no one was at fault. But i guess we will have to wait and see what AVESCO come up with in relation to the incident.




Cheers

Russell

[Kenseth17]

Dumbrell is innocent on all charges.No worries with that but reading this thread it seems many of you Holden boys are using it to bash the Fords and particularly Marcos Ambrose.The Lowndes/Ambrose incidents were racing ones in different conditions and circumstances, I would have thought that was pretty obvious even to the most one eyed Holden supporter.The Ambrose/Richards incident was a racing one as well.3 guys going hard for it at the front and all wanting to outrace the other.
If there was no charge on Dumbrell, and it is a stupid one, no one would be mentioning any of these incidents.

[wayno]

Rubbish. The Ambrose incident on Lowndes in race one was a disgrace and would be called as such by a high percentage of fans regardless of what else happened.

[Martin Thomas]

Originally posted by Kenseth17
If there was no charge on Dumbrell, and it is a stupid one, no one would be mentioning any of these incidents.

These incidents were mentioned in a different thread Waaay before the Dumbrell incident, let alone the charge.

[Elvis]

Originally posted by wayno
Rubbish. The Ambrose incident on Lowndes in race one was a disgrace and would be called as such by a high percentage of fans regardless of what else happened.

I must agree with Wayno there Kenseth=I dont agree when people call him FIGJAM,I love Ambrose,I collect a yearly 1/43 Devil racer,and will try and meet him this year before he goes to Nascar.......but hes a very lucky boy with the Lowndes incident.

If Skaife had done it to Ambrose,would you accept it......I doubt it.

Lowndes vs Ambrose second incident was what Days of Thunder and Cole Trickle like to call it=Rubbin is racin!!!!!

Race 1 was not Rubbin,It was wreckin :p

[Kenseth17]

Originally posted by wayno
Rubbish. The Ambrose incident on Lowndes in race one was a disgrace and would be called as such by a high percentage of fans regardless of what else happened.

Rubbish hey??
Did you not hear the explanation the stewards gave about the incident after race 1 wayno, or had you already closed your mind to that decision? I know that if half the guys in cars out there would show the want to win and balls that Ambrose has, they would be getting much better results.It also seems that from many of the comments that have come, the only way most fans think he can be beaten this year for the title is to disqualify him or penalise him in the points department.Probably is the only way.I can see your a passionate Holden man wayno but you seem a somewhat desperate one right now...


Elvis, I had no problem with Skaife at the Gold Coast last year when he overshot the front chicane and could have put himself and Ambrose into the wall, he finally showed some noush for the year, so you can't say how I would react if that was the case in NZ.In fact we have never met so how do you know how I would have reacted?I may have some bias in my blood being a Ford man but I can still see what is racing and what is wrong.Example -I don't think Dumbrell is much of a V8 driver but he was not to blame for the accident on the straight nor was Steven Richards to blame when he and Ambrose came together in race 1.
Defend Ambrose I will, especially when the stewards found no case to answer and their explantion.

I await your replies.....

:)

[wayno]

Yes I am biased but I call it as I see it. It seems I'm not the only one who thinks the way I do about the incident in race one. If you read the thread about the NZ round you'll see this was being discussed WAY before the charges were laid against Dumbrell. That is what my rubbish comment was in reference to.
Yeah I have a go at Ambrose, but only because I think he gets more than a fair deal from officials. If Greg Murphy was in the same place I still believe he would have been pinged.
The season is still very young. I don't drop my bundle just because my chosen brand is not winning. I have seen V8 Supercar 14 times in the past two seasons. If I was as closed minded as you are insinuating I wouldn't have bothered would I?

[Kenseth17]

Fair call wayno.No offence originally intended mate.It's passion like ours that make our sport so great. :)

[wayno]

Originally posted by Kenseth17
I await your replies.....


None taken but hey, you asked for my reply! ;)

[Martin Thomas]

Originally posted by Kenseth17
Defend Ambrose I will, especially when the stewards found no case to answer and their explantion.

:)

I reckon that statement may come back to haunt you. No ones argueing that the stewards didn't see anything wrong, we argue the stewards stuffed up..

Notice how there was a fair bit of surprise shown by the commentators, as well. Ambrose hit Lowndes' BACK wheel.. Ambrose got hit ON THE FRONT DOOR.

Desperation? I think Ambrose is the one showing a bit of desperation. Has anyone heard what was wrong with his car???

It doesn't take a penalty to beat Ambrose, NZ proved that...
I'm a Holden man but my money is on Lowndes, he has been the best driver for a long time, but now he's got the car.. Luck is going to play a huge this year, I think.

[dwarfs]

Originally posted by Kenseth17

-I don't think Dumbrell is much of a V8 driver
:) WTF ???

what do mean not much of a v8 driver !!! He has speed pace and can finish well up the field if bad luck dosent hold him back,
( Pukekohe would be a great example of Dumbrell's bad luck . )


cheers

[Kenseth17]

Originally posted by Martin Thomas
I reckon that statement may come back to haunt you. No ones argueing that the stewards didn't see anything wrong, we argue the stewards stuffed up..

Notice how there was a fair bit of surprise shown by the commentators, as well. Ambrose hit Lowndes' BACK wheel.. Ambrose got hit ON THE FRONT DOOR.

Desperation? I think Ambrose is the one showing a bit of desperation. Has anyone heard what was wrong with his car???

It doesn't take a penalty to beat Ambrose, NZ proved that...
I'm a Holden man but my money is on Lowndes, he has been the best driver for a long time, but now he's got the car.. Luck is going to play a huge this year, I think.

Nothing will come back to haunt me when you are talking about Marcos Ambrose and championships.
You missed my point about penalising Ambrose.To defeat him in a championship, you would have the best chance in penalising him.If you say he is desperate, then I take it you mean he is more desperate to win than any of your boys are.Two championships in a row and a lead in gunning for a third straight title is light years in front of any of the Lions best offerings right now.
You dislike Ambrose, most probably because he is so damn good, is a Ford man through and through and unashamedly so.He sticks it to the Holdens occasionally and has been the only Ford guy to do so.I guess that makes him as hard as nails.He has seen Ford take a beating from the Holden success over the last while and now is making things even up.Just accept his success and life will be easier for you.You have to be a damn good driver, almost a great one to be going for three championships in a row!Only Lowndes has the ability to knock him off drive for drive and guess what - he drives a Ford too! You must be beside yourself with grief. :D

[Kenseth17]

Originally posted by dwarfs
WTF ???

what do mean not much of a v8 driver !!! He has speed pace and can finish well up the field if bad luck dosent hold him back,
( Pukekohe would be a great example of Dumbrell's bad luck . )


cheers

dwarfs - Dumbrell is not much of a V8 driver compared to most of the field.
You seemed shocked.
You also seem to use the term 'bad luck' a lot as an excuse for your drivers.........
Next you will be telling us all Garth Tander doesn't suffer from foot in mouth disease. :)

[Martin Thomas]

Kenseth, if you show blind faith in the stewards, cool.

Ambrose is good, but his car is the main reason he is where he is, you can argue, call me one eyed, tell me I'm just sad to see holden losing.. Whatever. Lowndes, as a package, is the best driver out there and he now has the car to back him up, even if his luck has been bad.
Ambrose is showing that the pressure is getting to him, desperate (stupid) moves, or as your stewards say, he should have given more room. Having a 'problem' with the car that, as far as I know, the team couldn't find, only to 'fix' itself near the end of the race.:confused:

As I said, luck is going to be so important this year. So far Ambrose has had all the luck while his main contender, Lowndes has had only bad.
After years of listening to the bleeding from a couple of Ford mates (and then there's Bathurst), trust me, it aint as bad as you think to have Ford winning, when your mates laughs and tells you how good it feels to have 2 in a row, more than likely 3. All I do is say "Wow, 2 in a row you say? How good would a car be to win 5 in a row??
I for one would not begrudge Lowndes a title, he is so much more deserving than Ambrose ever was or will be...
Go Murph!:D

[Kenseth17]

We have our opinions and I respect that.It seems though that if a driver wins, it's the car.When he doesn't, it's the driver.That mentality is just plain wrong.It is a package of both plus the team work in pits - too many variables.People forget that in 2001 and 2002 Ambrose had some great results in pretty ordinary Fords compared to the all conquering Holdens.I will have to disagree about the car factor.He has run well in inferior machinery.
Lowndes is a champion and will be again.I was pretty disappointed about his spin in Race 1.Didn't help anybody.
I also believe you make your own luck.Lowndes will make his in time.
'My' officials wrongly fined Ambrose 10 grand after Gold Coast last year but I'm not gonna have a whinge about that.Blind faith is something you can't accuse me of.I disagree with the Dumbrell decision.Kind of s***s on that arguement doesn't it.
Murph had a great round at NZ and I won't be using the excuse that his car was 'the main reason'.I do however think that he needs to be way more consistent to challenge for a title.
he will be chasing Ambrose, Lowndes and Ingall and I don't fancy his chances right now.
Bring on Wanneroo.

:)

[Martin Thomas]

Just to clear something up. When I said you may live to regret that statement this is what I meant. You stated he didn't deserve a penalty as the stewards said he had no case to answer, I'm saying that that ties you into accepting all the stewards decisions.
You said
Did you not hear the explanation the stewards gave about the incident after race 1 wayno, or had you already closed your mind to that decision?
And
Defend Ambrose I will, especially when the stewards found no case to answer and their explantion.
this indicates Ambrose is not guilty 'cause the stwards said so..

But then you say
'My' officials wrongly fined Ambrose 10 grand after Gold Coast last year but I'm not gonna have a whinge about that.Blind faith is something you can't accuse me of.I disagree with the Dumbrell decision.Kind of s***s on that arguement doesn't it.

So, no, it doesnt poo on my arguement.. It kinda proves it.. The officials are right if it suits you and wrong when it doesn't. Nothing wrong with that. Anyway, who cares if they're fined, its the points or drive throughs that hurt.
But I see us going in circles and theres not much point, is it?:D

[Kenseth17]

Yeah, I'm starting to get a bit dizzy myself.We will be at it forever otherwise. :)

[Mark H-M]

I heard on the news that Dumbrell had been found guilty, but typicaly nothing else...can anyone tell me the sentence please?.

[wayno]

http://www.cams.com.au/content.asp?PageID=Article&ObjectID=547

I don't know where to begin to comment on this! :mad:

[Tumbo]

Does anyone else think that Gore's comments of "make an example of him" were out of line and in lieu of the imposed fine and penalty he should also be brought before the stewards for making a mockery of any "believed" unbias......were it Ambrose before the stewards he would have been paid $15K for his time and given 75 points for his driving being brought into disrepute, just like Skaife had the easy run a couple of yrs ago........bit of an exaggeration but u know what i mean :mad:

[Mark H-M]

Thanks for the link. What an absolute sham!

[Dingo]

Looks like AVESCO are sticking it to LP any way they can...

[b sharp]

Gore should take a look at his own drivers, from memory his drivers spend more time spinning of the track or in sand traps than any other cars in the field. is this not true
WPS's front spliter supplier must be pretty rich by now.
Even the race in question thay were off the track more than on it. :mad:

[brchi17]

Originally posted by wayno
http://www.cams.com.au/content.asp?PageID=Article&ObjectID=547

I don't know where to begin to comment on this! :mad:

I think the officials must have view the incident from the position of Dumbrell not slowing down & thus putting his vehicle in a bad position next to Baird.

I had another look at the incident last night & that is the only viewpoint I can see that PD could be guilty of.

Yes he had no time to made a decision, but I guess the officials must have thought that the in car & telemetry must have shown otherwise.

Bearing Dumbrell’s penalty in mind, I now wonder if the officials will come down hard on WPS with their regards to the intimidating an official case ???

cheers. :)

[the_goldie]

Geez that penalty is a bit harsh! Just because it resulted in a major accident they charge him, there were a few other incidents in that race that could have been deemed reckless driving!!! :mad:

[the_goldie]

Bloody 5minute rule....

If Whincup didn't spear off in the first place none of this would have happened... Wouldn't you call Whincups driving "careless" in the wet when he was on slicks??? Also noticed Dumbrell lost 75 points! What a crock!!!

Todd Kelly was fined $5000 for "reckless driving" I wonder how they work out the monetary values for fines?!

Dumbrell was also fined $2000 for an unsafe exit from pit lane - expensive weekend for the team!

Oh well on to the next round...

[wayno]

Originally posted by Dingo
Looks like AVESCO are sticking it to LP any way they can...

Yep. I have thought that this charge was partly based on getting into LP pretty much from the minute it was laid.
Looks like they've succeeded.

[brchi17]

Originally posted by wayno
Yep. I have thought that this charge was partly based on getting into LP pretty much from the minute it was laid.
Looks like they've succeeded.

Arrrrh the ole Larry Perkins / Avesco conspiracy theory :D !!!

What I do find strange is the nature of the short press release regarding this incident. Considering the press this has been given, I would have expect very long winded justification of the whole process - remember this is the first time this part of the judicial system has been tested, so I would have expected them to be .

I also find it strange that there is no word of PB appealing this & that there was no mention of Team Perkins Racing in any the press release.

Perhaps they are trying to suggest that this incident was rather clear cut & not clouded in the many variables that we've all discussed.

Is there more to this than meets the eye, or are we simply dreaming up this elaborate conspiracy theory......

cheers. :)

[inter]

Originally posted by wayno
Yep. I have thought that this charge was partly based on getting into LP pretty much from the minute it was laid.
Looks like they've succeeded.


Wayno , I read nearly all you threads and agree with all so far, but in this one i must disagree. I dont think it was a get back at LP issue, I personally belive that Dumbrell is at fault. ( my opinion ).
Your valuable thought please?

Regards inter

[badboyau69]

I honestly thought Dumbrell would not get charged as i saw it as a racing incident. I think it is an unfair decision made by the stewards as the deemed the Lowndes and Ambrose as a racing incident when i saw it as Ambrose delibrating takeing out Lowndes.


Cheers

Russell

[lukey73]

Having just seen the in car footage of the incident i must say dumbrell was lucky to get away with the fine that he did. The footage was on sports tonight and clearly shows baird on the brakes while dumbrell has a light throttle opening, it seems as if he was hoping that baird was going to move over and he (dumbrell) could go up the inside to gain position. You could see the dust to the left quite clearly and with baird braking it didnt look good at all.

Up until i saw that footage i was with most people thinking dumbrell had been picked on but after seeing the incar stuff he is lucky not to be excluded from the results and have a licence suspension for a few races.

Luke

[wayno]

Originally posted by inter
Wayno , I read nearly all you threads and agree with all so far, but in this one i must disagree. I dont think it was a get back at LP issue, I personally belive that Dumbrell is at fault. ( my opinion ).
Your valuable thought please?

Regards inter

Have just seen the in car footage on Sports Tonight and it has changed my opinion of the matter a little.
Paul not being on the brakes was a little naughty in my opinion. Even a little on the brakes might have helped his case as he was on slicks and it was very greasy out there.
My biggest gripe with this whole issue is the inconsistency that seems to be happening in V8's. It's a problem that has been niggling away at me for a few years now, but lately it seems to be getting worse.

[inter]

[
My biggest gripe with this whole issue is the inconsistency that seems to be happening in V8's. It's a problem that has been niggling away at me for a few years now, but lately it seems to be getting worse. [/B][/QUOTE]



I agree with you there.


Cheers inter

[wayno]

Paul made a split decision under very difficult circumstances. It turned out to be the wrong one. I still think what he did was no worse than what Ambrose did to Lowndes in the first race though.

[Elvis]

Originally posted by wayno
Paul made a split decision under very difficult circumstances. It turned out to be the wrong one.


I think the judges are sick of seeing Dumbrell involved in the 'wrong decision'-In Nascar they call it 'the big one'.......and they have the whole 43 car fields within 2 seconds of each other.

Dumb,brell has created 'the big one' 3 times in V8 supercars,:eek:

High speed pile up at Adelaide race a year or 2 back.

Took out Morris at i think Melbourne race year or 2 back.

Now this at NZ

And thats the major ones.........hes worse then Thexton and every man and his dog was going off at Thexton to get out of the sport.
If Steven Richards goes to the Pirtek ride=Castrol are in deep trouble with Dumbrell as #1 diver.

[b sharp]

[You could see the dust to the left quite clearly and with baird braking it didnt look good at all.]

We have to remember that the drivers are wearing helmets and there vision will not be the same as what the camera will see.
Maybe from the drivers eye the footage would be different.
:confused:

[lukey73]

Originally posted by b sharp
[You could see the dust to the left quite clearly and with baird braking it didnt look good at all.]

We have to remember that the drivers are wearing helmets and there vision will not be the same as what the camera will see.
Maybe from the drivers eye the footage would be different.
:confused:

B Sharp that is what the AVESCO camera is supposed to replecate, or as close as you can get, when i say to the left its as if was 100-200 meters in front of dumbrell to left at at 35 degree angle. Now if he couldnt see that then maybe he should have been on the horse track as he had his blinkers on.

When wearing a helmet it restricts your vision from more than 65 degree, i know from personal experience on the track, it was just a bad judgement call by dumbrell again.

Luke

[Leigh]

Why should he have been on the brakes?

If the car isn't sliding, than the brakes will make it slide...

Did you read the interview in MSN with Dumbrell...he states openly that he had no loss of traction...something that Perkins cars have always had in slightly damp conditions.

Are you suggesting that if the car in front brakes, you must too?

The car in front swerved, had it kept its line he would have made it through easily...:rolleyes:

I'd place money on it that he got done for the B-Pillar rule, as he hit behind the B-Pillar...

Makes a dangerous precedent that you can squeeze somebody out just because they are behind the B-Pillar...

[lukey73]

Originally posted by lcfp2297
Why should he have been on the brakes?

If the car isn't sliding, than the brakes will make it slide...

Did you read the interview in MSN with Dumbrell...he states openly that he had no loss of traction...something that Perkins cars have always had in slightly damp conditions.

Are you suggesting that if the car in front brakes, you must too?

The car in front swerved, had it kept its line he would have made it through easily...:rolleyes:

I'd place money on it that he got done for the B-Pillar rule, as he hit behind the B-Pillar...

Makes a dangerous precedent that you can squeeze somebody out just because they are behind the B-Pillar...

Leigh when you see the incar footage you see quite clearly that baird was moving over to the right side of the road with his brakes on. The was no way in gods earth that dumbrell was going to make it through the gap that was closing infront of him.

I am suggesting in this instance that yes dumbrell should have braked, he didnt assess the situation properly hence the reason he got the fine. I think he is lucky not to have got a bigger penalty, should be thankful for what he got and get on with things now. It was a mistake that hopefully he learns from.

As for Baird squeezing him out, dont think so! Think his prime objective was not hitting Whincup, i would have thought keeping dumbrell from passing was the last thing on his mind as he had his brakes on :) And what has dumbrell loosing traction got to do with anything, as a profeesional racing car driver one of your skills is to modulate brake pressure so the wheels dont lock in any condition, he didnt even touch the brakes and that was clearly evident from the incar data.

Luke

[Tumbo]

Originally posted by lukey73
As for Baird squeezing him out, dont think so! Think his prime objective was not hitting Whincup
Luke

just on this luke- if you watch the footage thenBaird moves over to allow Whincup onto the track, Whincup continues on the track, though a distance away Baird moves further over......thus pushing Dumbrell out of the way, if Dumbrell is charged over this why wasn't Whincup for continuing to push Baird off his racing line....i think that it is a racing incident with all three drivers at fault

[lukey73]

Originally posted by Tumbo
just on this luke- if you watch the footage thenBaird moves over to allow Whincup onto the track, Whincup continues on the track, though a distance away Baird moves further over......thus pushing Dumbrell out of the way, if Dumbrell is charged over this why wasn't Whincup for continuing to push Baird off his racing line....i think that it is a racing incident with all three drivers at fault

I think tumbo its a bit hard to lay blame at either whincup or baird. The way i see it is that numerous drivers went off the circuit before whincup, he was rejoining as to not hit the wall on the left, baird assessed the situation noticed that whincup was not completely in control and heading back on to the track ( wether intention or otherwise ) dumbrell would have had to have seen baird's brake lights and him drifting to the right to avoid whincup.

Now maybe they could accuse whincup of reckless driving, but with the limited space he had available in front of him to the left i doubt it. Baird i think was trying to do the right thing, let the out of control whincup regain his composure and get back on with it. Dumbrell seemed to just not care about the other 2 drivers and squeeze past not taking due care and i think that is why he got pinged.

Thats the way i see it and im not saying im right or others are wrong its just my read on the footage shown.

Luke

[xtreem2001]

I am still not convinced that Dumbrell should have been charged with dangerous driving as a result of an accident he didn't start.
In speedway racing the car which creates the event is the one that pays the penalty. If you apply that rule here then Whincup should have been charged. I have heard the arguement that Whincup shouldn't be blamed just because he lost control of his car. But, surely that is a contradiction in terms to all those guys who in the next sentence wanted to see Ambrose charged. If Whincup is allowed to lose control because of the track conditions
that certainly opens a whole new defence in future crashes. Surely Ambrose only has to indicate that he wanted the piece of track Lowndes was using and the case is closed. The decision by
any driver to brake or accelerate when faced with the dilema of avoiding other cars is a split second decision that in some cases does go wrong. If you watch the NASCARS you will hear the spotters yelling to drivers to either accelerate or brake to avoid the carnage. In Dumbrells case lack of experience should not be punished with fines and penalties. Some would argue that Bairds lack of experience also contributed to the chaos. Would Lowndes or Skaife have moved that far to the right or would they instead accelerate in the knowledge there was a car behind them and that Whincups car had already lost speed simply by leaving the track.
The other interesting point is the way in which Graig Gore is allowed to set the tone on the night of the hearing. On channel
ten news he set about challenging the stewards to get tough on
a driver he doesn't want in the v8's. Even Baird was allowed to
point the finger directly at Dumbrell. Those sort of comments are
dealt with very swiftly in all codes of football. Indeed most players called as witness to a report simply cant remember anything about the event. If the V8's want to be respected as an
international series then surely team owners and drivers cant be
allowed to pass judgement on something as serious as this.
Consistency is also sadly lacking if Dumbrell has to wear the fine and loss of points. Based on his penalty Todd Kelly is very lucky he hasn't lost all his points and copped double the fine. Surely
ignoring safety car boards is a decision the driver has plenty of
time to make as the field has slowed down. His defence that he
didnt know where the field actually was is rather odd when you
consider he has a team radio and surely they would be telling
him whats ahead. They certainly dont hesitate in chatting to the
drivers during a race, so why the silence when their driver is
endeavouring to catch the field. And Jones Jnr must be counting
his lucky stars that uncle Brad had time to cool down before
fronting the stewards.
I have seen the BIG 3 incidents that Dumbrell has been charged
with and in all honesty I still believe the vendetta is against his boss. If he was guilty at Melbourne (GP) then it only strengthens the arguement that Whincup was guilty in NZ. Add to that the fact that both Kelly boys have an equally bad record over the same period and explain why neither is trashed like Dumbrell.
Todd cleaned up his boss at Eastern Creek and follows that up with a huge clanger at NZ. It will take a lot to convince me that Dumbrell's only crime in NZ was that he cleaned up the Golden Boys team. Craig Gore employed Alex Yoong at the time AVESCO needed an Asian International to entice China to come onboard and he sponsors the safety car. Dumbrell drives for a team whose
boss is a thorn in the side of AVESCO. I wonder if the two teams involved were Stone Brothers and HRT would the outcome have been any different.

[Martin Thomas]

Why is it that a driver can be done for dangerous driving when a split second decision is involved yet the BJR cars were allowed to race with sticky throttles 2 years back at bathurst.. Not circulate to get back to the pits, but race.. Jones or bowe ended up putting it into the fence on the mountain while in traffic.
Ingall was dicing for 2,3,4 and 5 with a gearbox problem that had him locking up into every corner in round 1 and he also skidded out of control down the escape road just missing other cars in the pack.
I can't remember who it was in a commodore who had his windscreen fogging up and was wiping it with his hand.
Thats all O.K. Just when all hell has broken loose and you're on slicks in the wet and there's cars sliding back onto track just make sure you don't put a foot wrong..:confused:

[Goodwrench3]

My girlfriend looks out for Dumbrell when she's watching the V8's. She calls him 'The Common Denominator'. Her reason for this is that she has seen more of him off the track than on.
And thats not when he is causing carnage ie Adelaide '04!
I can't and don't argue with her.
Even if I wanted to.

[lukey73]

As wayno put it, not being on the brakes at all didnt help his cause. If dumbrell had of attempted to brake and avoid an accident then he may not have been pinged. The lowdnes/ambrose incident is different in that they were next to each other going for a corner. Ambrose should have been given a drive through penalty for that, but as he is the champ from lastyear that makes him untouchable.

Craig Gore should have a gag shoved down his throat that might shut him up for 5 seconds, i bet he urged Baird on to say something about dumbrell. I didnt see any comment after the incident but when they were walking away from the crash all seemed ok to me.

[brchi17]

Originally posted by lukey73
.....Craig Gore should have a gag shoved down his throat that might shut him up for 5 seconds.....

I find it strange that his actions are simular to those of another team manager from Albury who would speak his mind & look what they did to him :rolleyes: !!!

I guess all those ancillary sponsorships are allowing Gore to speak his mind without fear of the consequences. It amazes me how they let him throw weight around without fear of any repercussions.

Avesco’s silence is defining.

cheers. :)

[wayno]

On the subject of who should or should not have been charged in all this I think it's worth remembering that if Whincup didn't run off none of this would have happened in the first place.

[dwarfs]

Very bad to hear PD get a 15-16 thousand dollar fine and loss of 75 championship points..That must of hurt !!!

The less said the better about WoooooooooPS and Gore...


cheers

[awawaw]

Originally posted by wayno
Paul made a split decision under very difficult circumstances. It turned out to be the wrong one. I still think what he did was no worse than what Ambrose did to Lowndes in the first race though.

um yes it was. it wrote 2 cars off and damaged a few others and could of quite easiely killed a couple of drivers. if mc conville had of hit dumbrell in the driver side door full on i hate to think what might of happend.

[Mickcals]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by wayno
Paul made a split decision under very difficult circumstances. It turned out to be the wrong one. I still think what he did was no worse than what Ambrose did to Lowndes in the first race though.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



um yes it was. it wrote 2 cars off and damaged a few others and could of quite easiely killed a couple of drivers. if mc conville had of hit dumbrell in the driver side door full on i hate to think what might of happend.


That is so very true.

[Leigh]

Luke,

The way I saw it, was Dumbrell came around the corner, may or may not have seen the incident on his left, but proceeded down the right hand side of the track where he had clear real estate...then all of a sudden Baird appears in front of him with foot firmly on the brake pedal...

Now I don't know about you, but when I'm cut off on the freeway, sometimes I go for the brakes, other times I dive into the next lane or emergency stopping lane...so far I've managed to make the right decision every time...

Back to the racing incident, the speed at that corner is quite quick, I would almost suggest that the action taken by Dumbrell was instinctual rather than thought driven reaction...it all happened so quick...

I maintain, that it was a racing incident. If he had of reached for the brakes, chances are he would have punted Baird up the backside anyway...

One can not take a single angle as the be all and end all definitive shot...

As I said above, the way I saw it...and no indightment on how you saw it.

Cheers

[lukey73]

Originally posted by lcfp2297


As I said above, the way I saw it...and no indightment on how you saw it.



Leigh,

Its not how i saw it that matters, i think that it must have been similar to how the CAMS guys saw it too other wise he wouldnt have been fined.

On the freeway you arent doing 200+ k's and dont have a narrowing piece of road with a guard rail right next to you so that part of your post is really abit silly. I have missed my fair share of accidents and it really depends on the place and time as to what you do, once again i will say it, it seems as dumbrell took the wrong decision ! As above he wouldnt have been fined would he!!

Luke