F1 in USA this week.

[ferrari fan]

The whole circuis of F1 is shifting to Daytona this week for the next GP.
Kimmy and Michael together with Mark are in a good position to set a top Qualifing time.
Alonso and Nick together with the wild one are in a not so good situation.
High speed is what this circuit seems to be all about with a zig zag infield section.
The young lady that did so well in the 500 is having a drive and the hype regarding her is generating some serious publicity:)
David Letterman is a sponsor of her as she drivesone of his cars.

Prediction; To Hard ;)

[wayno]

Ummmmmm, think you've got the wrong iconic American race track Bert, but I'm looking forward to the US GP as well.
Indy can be a very unforgiving place as Ralf found out last year. Hopefully we can have a clean, close race with no serious incidents.

[Andrew]

Originally posted by wayno
Ummmmmm, think you've got the wrong iconic American race track Bert, but I'm looking forward to the US GP as well.
Indy can be a very unforgiving place as Ralf found out last year. Hopefully we can have a clean, close race with no serious incidents.

I'm looking forward to this GP too. I like the back-to-back races, especially considering that Toyota are half-competitive this year too....

Indy's infield is a joke, but the long banked straight is absolutely awesome. There have always been some exciting overtaking manouvres into that first corner. The track should suit Ferrari, McLaren, Toyota and Renault, who all have powerful engines. I hope for Webber's sake that the BMW is a little closer to the front of the pack for this event.
I think it would be hard to go past the McLaren duo for outright honours, with Alonso and Michael also with a chance.

[toad]

Last year (or was it the year before) Webber ran off the road whilst in the lead in his Jag.

[wayno]

McLaren have really been talking their chances up for Indy and are expecting to be extremely quick. Can't say I doubt them either!
I think it was two years ago when Webber lead this gp, but it was only due to him staying out longer than other runners.

[ferrari fan]

Originally posted by wayno
Ummmmmm, think you've got the wrong iconic American race track Bert, but I'm looking forward to the US GP as well.
Indy can be a very unforgiving place as Ralf found out last year. Hopefully we can have a clean, close race with no serious incidents.

Me BAD; I was trying to remember the name of the lady that is in the news for participating in the event in a small scale.
Good to see that I can not get away with nottin ;)

[wayno]

Fair enough too. Looking at her tends to scramble my thought process as well! ;)

[Dingo]

Poor old Dan Wheldon. He won the biggest race* of the year and nobody noticed...






*For the Americans that still watch Indycars anyway...

[wayno]

Check out places like Autosport and you'll see the poms certainly did!

[Dingo]

Originally posted by wayno
Check out places like Autosport
Not until they stop charging me to do so...

[wayno]

The mood in the Red Bull camp leading into Sunday's race is confident, with a new generation of Cosworth engine reputedly worth 30 to 40 more hp. The Red Bull really suffered on the straights in Canada, so hopefully they'll be a little more competitive. The Red Bull has been extremely reliable this year, so hopefully that will not change.
Temperatures are predicted to be between 24 and 26 degree for the week-end. It's been raining pretty heavily at Indy over the last few days, but a clear few days is on the radar now.

[brchi17]

Wasn't the infield section of the track meant to be changed to a longer/faster course, some time ago ???

I know the current infield track is tight, twisty and well a little last minute.

I would like to see the cars join the oval even earlier so that we could see how the best drivers in the world coaped with two high speed banked corners.

cheers. :)

[Goodwrench3]

Originally posted by Dingo
Poor old Dan Wheldon. He won the biggest race* of the year and nobody noticed...






*For the Americans that still watch Indycars anyway...

It depends where you were looking. I get your point though.
But in the future it'll be remembered as Wheldon's year I'm sure.
I was a spectator at Indy for the GP in 2001 and a very enjoyable experience it was too.
I've been a Schuey fan since '92 but like most other contributors on this forum am now firmly on MW's side. I'll be watching (after the cricket!) on Monday morn.

[wayno]

What a great week-end to be rostered off until Tuesday! Cricket, Golf and f1 on tv and radio LeMans to tune into when it's a bit quiet! :D

[brchi17]

Ralf loves concrete !!!

He's done it again. see here (http://www.formula1.com/race/news/3182/740.html)

Times from prac 2, could the prancing horse be getting ready to strike ???

1 10 Juan Pablo Montoya McLaren-Mercedes 1:11.118

2 9 Kimi Räikkönen McLaren-Mercedes 1:11.228

3 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 1:11.746

4 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:11.758

5 8 Nick Heidfeld Williams-BMW 1:11.825

6 14 David Coulthard Red Bull Racing 1:12.076

7 35 Pedro de la Rosa McLaren-Mercedes 1:12.119

8 37 Scott Speed Red Bull Racing 1:12.143

9 5 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:12.265

10 16 Jarno Trulli Toyota 1:12.344

11 6 Giancarlo Fisichella Renault 1:12.384

12 12 Felipe Massa Sauber-Petronas 1:12.464

13 7 Mark Webber Williams-BMW 1:12.578

14 15 Christian Klien Red Bull Racing 1:12.664

15 3 Jenson Button BAR-Honda 1:12.803

16 4 Takuma Sato BAR-Honda 1:13.037

17 11 Jacques Villeneuve Sauber-Petronas 1:13.079

18 39 Robert Doornbos Jordan-Toyota 1:13.361

19 38 Ricardo Zonta Toyota 1:13.567

20 20 Patrick Friesacher Minardi-Cosworth 1:13.783

21 21 Christijan Albers Minardi-Cosworth 1:13.963

22 19 Narain Karthikeyan Jordan-Toyota 1:14.008

23 18 Tiago Monteiro Jordan-Toyota 1:14.336

24 17 Ralf Schumacher Toyota

cheers. :)

[wayno]

Tomorrow will tell us a lot more as a few of the teams (noticeably Renault and BAR) have said they spent most of today concentrating on race set up. Seems like the extra hp in the Red Bull is making a difference, which is great. I think Scott Speed did an excellent job as well.

[brchi17]

It was interesting to read in the driver comments after session 2 that BAR are chasing grip and that Mark was trying a variety of different set up's for the race rather, than chase outright speed on the first day.

I must also say that both of the Ferrari drivers seem encouraged by the performance of the car, which I think is a first for the year during a Friday session.

Interesting to note that after Ralf’s crash all Michelin runners were told to run a higher pressure in their rear left tyres – I wonder if this will create wear issues for them during Sunday’s race ???

cheers. :)

[wayno]

Be interesting to see. Bet Renault don't even want to think about the reprecussions of that! It will be interesting to see how Ralf deals with his shunt in the next session. It must be starting to play on his mind now.

[TBVX05]

Maybe Webber should concentrate on car setup during qualifying and leave the quick laps for the race!

[wayno]

Unless there's been a big improvement in engine power the BMW will struggle this week-end.

[ferrari fan]

Well it is all happening in USA.
Ralf hit the same wall again and allthough unhurt, has been advised that he cannot start.
Richard Zonta has been call in for duty.
This has led to the following pole position; TOYOTA on pole!
Toyota, ferrari, McLaren,BAR and Mclaren (Kimmi) all in the top 8
Mark got the max out of the underpowered BMW and is in midfield together with Monty.
Michael and Fernando are side by side on the grid with Sato right behind them.
The first corner will be an interesting one for sure!
It seems that running their Michelin tyres with a to low a preasure has contributed to the crash of Ralf and all teams have been advised to increase the preasure.
This has shown to be a big issue in the pits area.
The tyres are feared to not be able to cope and therefore not last.
Why the premier class of motorsport runs with these huge sidewall, completely obsolete, design things is totally beyond me.
Maybe the reason that the brand name can be made bigger could be it :mad:

[toad]

Michelin has flown in a new cotainer of tyres for the race. The problem is that nobody knows the penalty if they choose to use them. It could be anything from a drive through penalty to exclusion.

A number of teams must be worried about competing in the US with this known threat of tyre failure, having witnessed two already. The last thing they want is a tyre failure causing a crash and spectator injury in the land of litigation.

Increasing the tyre pressures will definitely slow the cars down which makes me wonder if Jarno and Kimi are still on low pressures. I also wonder how many drivers will have this threat in the back of heir mind tommorow as they are travelling towards turn one at 340km/h?

[toad]

From Biratore....

“We fully support Michelin in this situation, and in the efforts they are making to best resolve it. They are flying out different tyres to use in tomorrow’s race – the same that were used in Barcelona for the Spanish Grand Prix,� explained Briatore. “The authorisation to use them has not yet been granted, but if that were not given, we would not compete in tomorrow’s race. The safety of our drivers remains our number one priority.�

[wayno]

1 J Trulli (It) Toyota 1:10.625
2 K Raikkonen (Fin) McLaren 1:10.694
3 J Button (GB) BAR 1:11.277
4 G Fisichella (It) Renault 1:11.290
5 M Schumacher (Ger) Ferrari 1:11.369
6 F Alonso (Sp) Renault 1:11.380
7 R Barrichello (Brz) Ferrari 1:11.431
8 T Sato (Jpn) BAR 1:11.497
9 M Webber (Aus) Williams 1:11.527
10 F Massa (Brz) Sauber 1:11.555
11 JP Montoya (Col) McLaren 1:11.681
12 J Villeneuve (Can) Sauber 1:11.691
13 R Zonta (Brz) Toyota 1:11.754
14 C Klien (Aut) Red Bull 1:12.132
15 N Heidfeld (Ger) Williams 1:12.430
16 D Coulthard (GB) Red Bull 1:12.682
17 T Monteiro (Por) Jordan 1:13.462
18 C Albers (Ned) Minardi 1:13.632
19 N Karthikeyan (Ind) Jordan 1:13.776
20 P Friesacher (Aut) Minardi 1:14.494

Getting interesting isn't it! I don't think Michelin should be allowed to use a different tyre without penalty. The rules are garbage, but they ARE the rules.
Sad to see the asthmatic Williams so far down the grid.

[toad]

You are not wrong on the Williams. I can't believe their inconsistency. They can qualify anywhere from pole to 15th! In some races they start well and fall right off the pace, in other just the opposite.

There is a lot of friction between them and BMW and from what i hear there will be an announcement in the next couple weeks about the future of BMW-Sauber and BMW or Toyota-Williams.

What is also desperately needed in F1 now is a control tyre.

[wayno]

I don't think the control tyre will be far away. Go and look at the speed trap times and the Williams is about 14 k's down on the top runners. That's very hard to make up!

[brchi17]

Originally posted by toad
From Biratore....

“We fully support Michelin in this situation, and in the efforts they are making to best resolve it. They are flying out different tyres to use in tomorrow’s race – the same that were used in Barcelona for the Spanish Grand Prix,� explained Briatore. “The authorisation to use them has not yet been granted, but if that were not given, we would not compete in tomorrow’s race. The safety of our drivers remains our number one priority.�

This is a big statement as it has massive repercussions on the championship if they actually followed through on their threat. Imagine if Kimi wins again ???

It could also cost Bernie and co a big amount of $$$ because then there wouldn't be the guaranteed 20 cars for the GP. I would expect a massive amount pressure on Renault to race, regardless.

Also I expect Ferrari to lobby for a big penalty for all Michelin runners if they choose to swap tyres considering they do use them and would be the most likely to lose out if the new tyre is actually better than what is on the cars at present.

At least no one can say that Formula 1 is boring.

cheers. :)

[toad]

I suspect they will all run as normal.

But there is a threat that if Michelin advise a tyre change and Ferrari protest, the Michelin teams could withdrawl from the race, or just do one parade lap then pit. It would leave only 2 ferrari's, 2 jordand and 2 minardi's in the race. Obviously that would be a farce.

The dilemna for FIA is of they impose a light penalty for swapping tyres (such as a drive thru) this will establish a benchmark and teams may change tyres for performance gain in future because of the light penalties. If they improse heavy penalties the Michelin teams may take the risk of running suspect tyres which obviously has a threat of major inury to the driver or spectators.

Hmmm....you are right...its never boring

[ferrari fan]

What a MESS, To many Captains- intere$t$ every where.
Briatore and Co do have the power to force this through.
The repercussions are HUGE, but for a few different people/org. other than just them.
Drivers-spectators safety is ruling all other considerations.
I believe that there is a huge amount of ducking and diving going on and as per usual the Aussie Minardi Supremo is holding a BIG stick, as he stands a lot to gain
:D
What do people think regarding these antiquated tyres that are only used in F1.
All other forms of Tarmac Motorracing would NOT put up with these donuts.
We need Large rims and low profile
:D
Wait for the laptimes to fall and cornerspeed to soar!!

[skyzerr33]

poor slow Williams. hopefully Webber gets some points out of it.

and Bert you were thinking of Danica Patrick (http://www.indyracing.com/drivers/driver.php?driv er=259)

[dwarfs]

Although i would like Ralf to compet in the GP, i thinks its for the best that he sits out.. Ralf even said himself that he has lost all confidence in the race track.. Ralf was so angrey with the failure that he kicked what was left on the front of the car straight off... I would of done the same if i was him or probably worse..

A chicane to be placed at turn 13 is the talk at the moment as they do not want a repeat of Ralfs accident in the GP race...

Michelin have warned teams that are having trouble with their tyres not to race.. Like that will happen..

But get a load of this, Briatore is saying Renault wont race if the FIA dont take action on the tyre problems..

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"However, Renault chief Flavio Briatore said that if authorisation is not forthcoming from the FIA to switch tyres, Renault will not race."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I find it hard to believe that Flavio would keep the championship leader in the pits along with Fisichella and let Raikkonen take more points out of their drivers and Teams championship...

Congrads to Toyota for their maiden pole position..

Cant wait for the race..:cool:

cheers

[brchi17]

Originally posted by dwarfs
.....I find it hard to believe that Flavio would keep the championship leader in the pits along with Fisichella and let Raikkonen take more points out of their drivers and Teams championship...

Exactly the reason why I think this issue is becoming more about who holds the power, rather than tyres.

One can only imagine the cloak and dagger activities that might start if the FIA allow for the Michelin runners to switch to this supposedly safer tyre. What's to say that it's not a super special compound that they've created specifically for the weekend's weather ???

The plot thickens....

cheers. :)

[wayno]

Originally posted by brchi17
One can only imagine the cloak and dagger activities that might start if the FIA allow for the Michelin runners to switch to this supposedly safer tyre. What's to say that it's not a super special compound that they've created specifically for the weekend's weather ???


Exactly why they should not be allowed to run them. If Michelin have stuffed up this badly then tough. Allowing them to run different tyres with no penalty would create a precedent that would cause all sorts of problems.

[ferrari fan]

Better put my recorder on Long play;) as this could be either the longest or the shortest GP in a long while.
Ahhh yer gotta luv a good stouch and this is certainly leading up to one hell of a match
There are rumors arround that there is a demand for a chicane in turn 13!! or certain teams will not run!!
What a load treads are being made, shame we can not be closer to this intense powerplay.
My phone bill to the USA is looking Ahemm :eek:

[toad]

more on the chicane rumour....


The seven Michelin teams have agreed that they will only race in the US Grand Prix if a chicane is fitted before the banked turn 13 overnight.

Following a post-qualifying meeting, the teams have written a letter to the FIA explaining their position and requesting the construction of a chicane. However that is extremely unlikely to happen, which means that we could see a race take place with just the six Bridgestone cars in it - provided the Michelin teams stick to their agreement.

[wayno]

There seems to be a lot of posturing going on at Indy. I really can't see the Michelin teams pulling out as there is just too much at stake.
Wouldn't be the first time we've seen an irrational decision in f1 though! ;)

[Dingo]

Originally posted by wayno
Exactly why they should not be allowed to run them. If Michelin have stuffed up this badly then tough. Allowing them to run different tyres with no penalty would create a precedent that would cause all sorts of problems.
Completely agree. But then again, is the issue really with Michelin? Maybe we should be looking at those who make the rules? Would serve the FIA right for being so short-sighted in their quest to cut costs in F1. Maybe if they cut back on their VIP bill...

[SmartyMarty]

from another forum:

Unconfirmed report:
"Trulli qualified on 3 laps of fuel, as Toyota thought they would not be racing. He'll be starting from the pits in the T Car."

seems to become a very interesting race!!!! definately staying up to watch it....

[wayno]

Michelin have gone to the FIA again on Sunday morning and basically been told to nick off!

http://www.formula1.com/race/news/3197/740.html

As it should be.

[wayno]

What a joke! :mad:

[wayno]

I am absoulutely choking with rage at the moment. I was nearly in tears watching the start of this race. For a sport that pretends it is so desperate to really crack the US market this is a joke. Tell me ANY of the spectators there today are going to bother coming back again! :mad:
This must be the blackest day in formula one history.

[BB]

Very dark days for F1 or should that be F 0.5.
if Bernie thinks he will crack the US market now he has got another thing coming. Michelin and the F1 Technical Directors should be ashamed of what they have reduced the greatest show on earth to. "A farce".

[wayno]

A Michelin add on the last break at 10! Talk about irony!

[yofords]

Nothing agaist Shumacker as I respect him and thing hes a champ! but why should he get points out of this when he hasnt deseved it, there should of been a better sportmanship than that as his brother is not racing for obvious reasons and some respect to support him I would of thought. Anyway very debatible and dont wish to get political.

[dwarfs]

This is going to damage the face of F1 in America for a long time..

What a $*** turn out, and i feel sorry for everbody that payed to see the F1 race..

cheers

[BB]

Lets look at the bright side. At least all the cars that started the race, finished.:rolleyes:

[Dingo]

If Formula 1 was ever going to crack the USA, it needed to be this year. Bye-bye USA. Still can't believe that something couldn't be done to allow all the cars to compete. This is the sort of thing that makes motor racing a joke to those who are not fans.

Just imagine if every car had been on Michelins...

[Gan88]

Originally posted by SmartyMarty
seems to become a very interesting race!!!! definately staying up to watch it....

I set the alarm for 3am... But thank God I slept through it...

If the Michelin couldn't handle the pace, then they should have just slowed down...

[Gan88]

Originally posted by yofords
why should he get points out of this when he hasnt deseved it

Schumacher won the race fair and square. He was the first legal car past the finish line. I thought that's how motorsport has been working for decades now.

F1 is a team sport. The way I see it, Ferrari, Bridgestone, Shell, M@rlboro came up with a better solution than nine other teams to win at Indianapolis.

[Dingo]

Originally posted by Gan88
Schumacher won the race fair and square. He was the first legal car past the finish line. I thought that's how motorsport has been working for decades now.
Not (http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr565.html) always (http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr645.html)...

[lukey73]

After hearing what James Allen had to say regarding the new surface i can feel for Michelin and there teams.

Take into account that the track has been resurfaced since the last Grand Prix there, no teams test there so they are totally dependent on the data from the previous year. Firestone rang head office (Bridgestone) after running the Indy 500 and gave them an update on tyre wear etc. How can Michelin who dont have access to this information provide a tyre that would stand up to the pressure's and wear trends that are involved with running at the Brickyard.

There is a lot of finger pointing but the stupid rules they have in place and the FIA for inforcing those rules when there are saftey issues ( which should be paramont ) is the worst part of this whole race. When the FIA want to try and crack the US market and having had 2 bad races out the last 4 it wont leave a good taste in the mouth's of the US motorsport follower. MY bet is its good bye USA Grand Prix or atleast no extension of the contract past its current end date.

Luke

[Gan88]

Originally posted by Dingo
Not (http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr565.html) always (http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr645.html)...

Yes, the Brazillian result was a shocker, saved only by the fact that no one could agree on whether it was performace enhancing.

What was illegal about the Ferraris in 1999- that incident was just a bit of McLaren wishful thinking, wasn't it?

Fast forward to 2005- Schumacher is the deserving winner of the US GP.

[Kiwiracing]

WOW I missed all this, what actually happened, F1 site has some detail but I'd like to know what you saw on 10's coverage and what the guys at 10 had to say.

Cheers

Kiwiracing

[Kiwiracing]

Ha this from the post race press conference:

Q: We saw some debris being thrown on the track unfortunately, what were the track conditions like? We saw your left rear tyre being examined quite closely in the first pit stop.
MS: It was mainly bottles, a bit of beer, as far as I could smell, in the first corner, but conditions were OK, no problem.


He could smell the beer - must have been thirstly:p

Cheers
Kiwiracing

[lukey73]

When they were throwing full cans of Budwieser on the track every second lap im suprised he didnt stop for a taste.

The whole race is a disgrace to the motorsport freternity, The FIA should be ashamed for allowing such a race to take place, Ferrari if they win the Championship wont be deserved champions this has put a very bad taste in my mouth and i guess alot more people all over the world will feel the same.

The only word that discribes the weekend is FARCE!

[toad]

Understatement of the year from Michael Schumaker


"Rubens and I had a close race ? there was only the two of us really. I lost the lead to Rubens because we had long pit-stops to check the tyres and mine was longer than his and he was pushing very hard."

"I suppose it was not the best way to take my first win of the season and it was sad for the fans"

[the_goldie]

Is it just me or does $7.50 sound like good value for Ferrari to win the constructors championship??? Even Michael is paying $9.00 to win the championship?!?!

[berkut76]

Originally posted by Dingo
If Formula 1 was ever going to crack the USA, it needed to be this year. Bye-bye USA. Still can't believe that something couldn't be done to allow all the cars to compete. This is the sort of thing that makes motor racing a joke to those who are not fans.

Just imagine if every car had been on Michelins...

What a disgrace. The negotiations for a second US GP in Las Vegas, Nevada were supposed to take place duting the INdy GP weekend. Now, it's all for nothing with very strong possibility of having "0" F1 races here in the States.

I think a new series free from Max and Bernie should be set up following the expiration of current Concorde agreement.

Regards,

Sergey

[wayno]

What the US press are saying;

Curt Cavin, Indianapolis Star

"After what the fans have thrown on the track at Talladega last year in NASCAR. I'm surprised they didn't throw more stuff. I thought David Coulthard had it right when he said: 'If we come back, half of the crowd will not.' I don't think Tony George can run this race for 50,000 people. I also think that Michelin is not getting enough of the blame. If the FIA is going to hold fast on its red light rule with Montoya in Canada, then it has to hold fast with this rule as well."

Jonathan Ingram, Palm Beach Post

"It is a huge setback for Formula 1 and for the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. I usually have a lot of respect for both of those organisations but today I am reminded that in America the sanctioning bodies and promoters always work hard to get the best result for the fans. In this marketplace they could not survive if they did not do that. Clearly it does not work that way in the F1 world: that includes the teams, the tyre suppliers and the FIA. The prevailing attitude in that group is to put their own interest so far ahead of the fans that it is absurd. And we saw an absurd event today."

Dave Kallmann, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel

"What happened today means that every bit of goodwill fostered over the last five years has been lost and revives every reason the fans had to question F1. The fans did not pay for a six-car show. You need to have a back-up plan and there was nothing. That is inexcusable. If you really want to be in the marketplace you have to adjust to how things are done and pissing off 120,000 fans is not a good way to keep them. it seems to me that a lot of what goes on in F1 is seeing who is the biggest bully in the sandbox and if they all try this it ends up blowing up the whole event. I cannot believe that someone could not find a compromise to make the race happen. I don't know who to blame."

Bruce Martin, National Speed Sport News

"This event has overcome the manipulative event in 2002. Last year was good and this year the crowd was up. It survived that problem but even the Speedway people are saying that they are not sure that the damage is repairable. Today there was no competition. It was a skeleton of a race. The problem is the F1 attitude, the bureaucracy. They have such a huge self-importance. The Speedway had zero control over what happened and they are the ones who are taking the pain. They are the ones who will have to answer the phones from people who want their money back. And Bernie will be off looking for another country to hold a Grand Prix."

Annie Proffit, Automobile Magazine

"The FIA could have done something about it earlier and could have avoided Michelin having to stand down its drivers. To place the blame on Tony George and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway does them a great disservice. They have gone out of their way to accommodate F1. Look at all the improvements made at the Speedway. I would like to see F1 back but I really think the politics is stifling and there is no commonsense."

[Dingo]

Originally posted by berkut76
What a disgrace. The negotiations for a second US GP in Las Vegas, Nevada were supposed to take place duting the INdy GP weekend. Now, it's all for nothing with very strong possibility of having "0" F1 races here in the States.
Would 99% of Americans even notice if the F1 circus never came back? Watching SportsCenter on ESPN over the weekend, all they showed was Bernie's "colorful" description of Danica Patrick. If the media can't get excited enough to show at least some part of practice/qualifying, what chance the fans?

Was there more coverage over in the States? Or was it relegated to behind the ChampCar race at Portland?

[wayno]

Does anyone know what the penalty would have been for the Michelin teams if they had changed tyres? I haven't been able to find any mention of it other than it would have been "significant".
Surely the teams could have run. Even if they were penalised a lap they would have still caught the Minardi and Jordans for points.

[wayno]

This taken from Planet F1. Couldn't have said it better myself!

Losers
Michelin
Clearly coming to a race with tyres that weren’t safe after just ten laps was one of the biggest miscalculations in motor-racing history. Let’s make no bones about it, it’s thanks to Michelin we had a rubbish race.

Even the tyres they flew in that had been used in Barcelona they weren’t that sure about. In mitigation, Bridgestone probably didn’t share all the tyre data they amassed during the Indy 500 and the Indy situation isn’t replicated anywhere else.

What the incident has done is force the teams towards a one-tyre formula which at the end of the day, is no bad thing. It’s better to have a World Championship for cars and drivers than one for tyre manufacturers.

Having made their BIG mistake and acknowledged it early, Bernie Ecclestone, the FIA and Ferrari did everything possible to make them pay for it.

Race Director Charlie Whiting
Ross Brawn’s drinking buddy released a letter that he got from Michelin with some smart answers as to why they couldn’t use different tyres on Sunday.

But he’s changed the rules for Bridgestone prior to a race so we’ve been here before. It's surprising nobody’s questioned why Whiting changed the tyre rules at the beginning of the 2003 Brazilian GP.

Back in 2003 you were only allowed to take one wet tyre to races, so you had to make your mind up before the event. Bridgestone arrived at Interlagos with their legendary intermediate tyre that was quite good in wet and mixed conditions. Michelin had a full wet that could run in more rain.

When the heavens opened before the race, Whiting delayed the start because the Bridgestone runners wouldn’t have been able to make it round safely. It was clearly Bridgestone’s fault for not bringing a full wet tyre, but as the argument has gone this weekend – they knew the situation…

After delaying the start the field was then sent round Interlagos behind the Safety Car until enough water was taken off the circuit. Had they released the field when it was suitable for the Michelins on full wets, then Fisichella would never have won the race in his Jordan and Kimi Raikkonen may well have got the win.

Nobody complained because it was a safety issue. Fast forward two years and Whiting is not prepared to compromise in another safety situation. This interpretation of the rules when it suits them makes F1 fans deeply suspicius - it's like there was an agenda here from the FIA.

Bernie Ecclestone
His refusal to answer some simple questions from Martin Brundle on the grid showed you where the problem lay. Ecclestone has tried very hard to bring F1 to North America, but even before this race the fans weren’t biting. Even with ticket prices at $85. (Try buying a grandstand seat for £50 at a European race.) A crowd of 120,000 was half full before we even got the farce of a race we had.

So he’s gone and shot himself in the foot by not sorting out the teams and getting everyone to agree to a solution. The idea that Bridgestone could have the front three rows of the grid in exchange for a safety chicane, (Introduced on safety grounds, nothing to do with performance) seemed pretty fair.

He and his former employee Charlie Whiting should have forced it through.

The FIA
Max Mosley and the FIA are supposed to be the champions of safety. So does preserving the rules at all costs, even though it might compromise safety for some of the teams, sound contradictory to you?

Their solution to the Michelin problem was run slower on the banking. It’s a motor race, though isn’t it.

I suppose the sponsors of the EuroNCAP tests will applaud the Michelin teams for opting for safety instead of competing.

The best thing they can do now is cancel the result of the race and use the FIA’s money (or Bernie’s) to compensate US race fans.

Ferrari
Nine teams agree on a way forward and the one team that spoils it all is…yes, Ferrari. They’re not to blame for the debacle, but they are to blame for the compromise solution not going through. And as a result they come away from the race with 18 points. Jean Todt was grinning on the grid and you know why.

The team feel no shame at testing more than all the others so the other teams won't have been surprised.

It’s odd, too, that for the first time we get to hear Ferrari’s pit radio. Why don’t we hear it in the other races – the Championship leaders, Renault, made theirs available in Canada, a really crucial race for them.

Finally, even when there are just two cars at the front, they won’t let their cars race to the line. Rubens and Michael could have had a humdinger over the last 15 laps but it was 2002 all over again. Fall in line

So how come Michael Schumacher was allowed to challenge Rubens on the last.lap of the Monaco Grand Prix?

Jordan
The chance to score a shedful of points proved too much for the greedy b******s in charge of the team. The new sporting director (though surely a contradiction in terms) explained that they wanted to put on show.

Clearly he doesn’t appreciate that six cars running round a track, with a pre-determined result doesn’t count for entertainment in the USA. Even Ferrari fans were leaving their seats and going home.

Minardi
Paul Stoddart argued that the only reason that Minardi competed was that he had to race the Jordans, their only serious competition in F1.

Because the yellow cars went out to race, he did too. But how did they know on the formation lap that Jordan were going to compete with Ferrari? Surely the only time they knew was when the Jordans didn’t dive down the pitlane.

Michael Schumacher
Presumably after this race Michael Schumacher will be resigning from his position in the Grand Prix Drivers Association. He’s supposed to be the guy in charge of F1 safety yet he’s racing for a team who weren’t prepared to support it

His position now is untenable.

In the race he had a barging incident with Rubens, but unlike many others, this time he didn’t intend to do it. Once he locked up his brakes into Turn 1 he could do nothing to avoid the other Ferrari. It was robust but it looked accidentally robust.

[Andrew]

A simply appalling state of affairs!
Where does one begin?
The people worst hit were the fans who paid up big to see one of the most
intense and
colourful F1 championship races of recent seasons. With McLaren in the
ascendancy,
Renault still strong, BAR desperate for points and with obvious pace,
Ferrari looking for their
strongest race of the season, and an astonishing Toyota on pole, it
looked like a cracker of a
race. And look what we got! To those people who forked out the money to be there, their disgust is fair enough.

At the end of the day, it is Michelin's fault for not ensuring their tyre construction was up the standard. Admittedly, the track had been resurfaced since last season, and Bridgestone had benefitted from recent Firestone data to make a new tyre for the new track conditions and an entire GP distance. In addition, the new tyre rules demanding the same set to last qualifying and the entire race added an extra complexity to the issue, but Michelin still did not make a tyre that could cope, despite all of their resources.

The second appalling aspect of this debacle was that a compromise could not be found between the FIA, Michelin, the Speedway, Bridgestone, and all the teams to allow a full grid to compete. Surely it would be better to push through amended rules on the eve of the GP, race under appeal, then sort the mess out at the end? In that way, the fans get to see a proper race, sponsors get their time, the TV audience isn't disapponted, and F1 is not the laughing stock it currently is the day after this rubbish occurred.

If what media reports say is rtue, then once again it is Ferrari that stood in the way of the show, blocking a compromise that could have seen the full grid line up. In many ways I am sympathetic to their position - their Bridgestons were able to run, they had turned up with the intention to race, and Michelin's misfortune was their own problem. The fact that more that all but 6 cars were effectively wiped out meant little to them when they and their tyre supplier had done everything right. And a part of me wants to say, "fair enough." Another part of me is concerned about the sport itself. Clearly, ferrari see themselves as bigger than the sport. How else do you explain their decision not to vote with every other team to find a compromise - namely, the building of a chicane between turns 12 and 13 - to allow the Michelin cars to compete? I get the sense that if Jordan hadn't put their cars on the grid, then Minardi also would not have, but Ferrari would still have run their own two car race, sanctioned by Bernie, Max, and Charlie Whiting.

I know that the cause of all of this was Michelin's tyres - that is indisputable. Their culpability is central. But the really angering part of this whole episode is that despite the realisation the day before the race that things were likley to end this way, a compromise was still not reached. Why not? It seems that the fans, the race-going punters - indeed, everyone else does not matter, as long as the political posturing is in the way. Why could not the FIA, Ferrari and Bridgestone, allowed appended rules that saw Michelin cars run - even if they were not eligible to score points ahead of Bridestone runners. In fact, ANYTHING would have been better than a six car 'race'.

I am just so disgusted (personally as well, because my beloved Toyota scored their first podium) that this farce occurred. Why could not the FIA and Michelin's intransigence have been sorted out, and saved F1's face from the mocking it is now receiving? Why could not the special batch of tyres flown from France have been fitted to the cars, and the Michelin teams forced to start a lap down, or other some-such arrangement? Safety is paramount, but so is the F1 show, so why not ensure a safe running on new tyres, put on a race, and sort the politics out afterwards?

[Andrew]

I started my reply before wayno posted the excellent excerpt from Planet F1, so if it seems out of 'order' then that is why...

[Andrew]

Originally posted by Andrew

I am just so disgusted (personally as well, because my beloved Toyota scored their first podium) that this farce occurred.

I also meant to say 'Pole Position'... :rolleyes:

[wayno]

Now all we have to do is wait for the lawyers to que up. This deplorable incident is not going away and will be leaving an acrid taste in the mouths of race fans for a long time to come.

[szwadiak100]

Formula One is no longer a sport. It's a joke.

[Andrew]

On the plus side, it would be cheaper to recreate the Indianapolis F1 grid in diecast...:p

Yes, you're right, sorry. This is serious.

Carry on....

[wayno]

Originally posted by Andrew
On the plus side, it would be cheaper to recreate the Indianapolis F1 grid in diecast...:p

Yes, you're right, sorry. This is serious.

Carry on....

Making the scale beer cans to put on the circuit might be a little difficult though!

[HRT 1-2]

From Racetime news:

Joint Release From Michelin Teams
Jun 20 2005
JOINT PRESS RELEASE FROM THE MICHELIN TEAMS


2005 UNITED STATES GRAND PRIX


Indianapolis (USA), 19th June 2005. The Michelin teams deeply regret the position that they have been put in today and would like to apologise to all the spectators, TV viewers, Formula One fans and sponsors for not being able to take part in today's USA Grand Prix.

Following Ralf Schumacher's accident on Friday morning, we were advised by Michelin that none of the tyres that were available to the teams could be used unless the vehicle speed in turn 13 was reduced. Without this Michelin did not consider the tyre to be safe to be used for the race.

All the teams are confident in Michelin and trust their advice as we know they are competent and responsible and their written instruction to us not to race unless changes to the circuit were made was accepted.

After final data from Michelin became available at 06.30 on Sunday morning it became clear that Michelin were not able to guarantee the safety of the drivers. Numerous discussions and meetings took place to find a safe solution to the problem. Every possibility for the race to go ahead in a safe manner was explored. The only practical solution was for a chicane to be installed prior to Turn 13 and nine of the teams were prepared to run under these conditions even forgoing championship points or by allowing non-Michelin teams to take top positions on the grid.

Unfortunately all proposals were rejected by the FIA.

Safety is always the first concern of any team and the FIA. Regrettably the teams were obliged to follow Michelin's requirements not to race.

We are totally aware that the USA is an important market for Formula One and there is an obligation for Formula One to promote itself in a positive and professional manner. It is sad that we couldn't showcase Formula One in the manner we would have liked today.


The original press release distributed in the media office at Indianapolis was signed by the Team Principals.

Now this is the pinnacle of what???

What a wank, glad I didn't do what I was thinking, watch the cricket then flick over to the GP, both a disaster:(

[wayno]

I bet the rules would have been bent to look after Bernies mates at Ferrari. At first I was angry at Michelin more than anything, but I'm starting to waver a little now.
The FIA have been flexible before. The wet tyre problem with Bridgestone in Brazil 2003 is an example of this. A compromise should have been found.
Ferrari are also to blame as once again they have failed to consider the bigger picture.

[brchi17]

Originally posted by szwadiak100
Formula One is no longer a sport. It's a joke.

It's been heading this way for a while and now they've confirmed it.

Of all places to do this too, if anyone knows how to sue it's the Americans. I'd expect a rather large class action again just anything that breaths and was present along the pit wall after this joke.

I’m glad I wasted my morning getting up early to watch the GP, NOT :mad: !!!

I doubt whether Michelin will want to be involved in motorsport once the FIA has finished with them over this one ???

This is a black day for motorsport and I feel sorry for the fact that those who are supposed to be intelligent individuals couldn’t find the common sense to avoid this disaster.

I wonder if we can safely say that this was the last USA GP for a long, long time to come.

cheers.

[wayno]

Originally posted by brchi17
I wonder if we can safely say that this was the last USA GP for a long, long time to come.


Big chance of that happening. The Indianapolis Motor Speedway website has no countdown clock to the next gp on the front page, and ticket info for next year has been removed as well.
I love this quote from the New York Times;
"Quite frankly, the fans got cheated," said Bernie Ecclestone, the head of Formula One.
No s**t sherlock! Maybe doing something about it would have been a good idea! :rolleyes:

[lukey73]

Bring on the GPWC i say, atleast they will think of the fans and find a solution over this Ferrari/FIA/Bernie run shambles.

What was once a great series and was looking at being that again with greater competition has now turned into a WORLDwide disgrace. The only people to blame are one's listed above not Michelin or any of the other teams (running or not) it is because of 3 individuals this series has turned into the FARCE we saw at this race.

End of Story.

[TBVX05]

Totally Agree that its not Michelins fault. I also agree that a one man band running the show is ridiculous!

[singer]

Originally posted by lukey73
The only people to blame are one's listed above not Michelin or any of the other teams (running or not) it is because of 3 individuals this series has turned into the FARCE we saw at this race.

End of Story.

What Race are you talking about?

If you referring to the USGP (not), all that was, was a procession of cars!

No wonder the fans threw rubbish & booed.:(

[ferrari fan]

For all you excusiologist and not knowing/understanding the rules, read the RULES!
Rule 115C should enlighten you!
Bridgestone found a way to make a tyre that did last the race!
Never mind how they got their info.
The Michelin fitted cars COULD have raced with a different setting(Less camber and less scrubbing toe in).
And also driving according to the conditions.
Putting in a chicane in was a smokescreen, not a viable option, just a way to divert the blame and confuse the average Punter.
Exelent way for the one Eyed to have a rant, but that ain't the smart way in the end.
I enjoyed this as it does not affect me in any way, so it is all just entertainment.
The one driver that annoyed me was the Halucinating Borrachello, he is a first class tool , another dreamer without the skill to back it up.
He will be dumped and we will not have to put up with her again;)
Argghhhhh I enjoyed typing this!;)

P.S. If I would have paid for a ticket to attend the race, I would be very ticked off indeed.

[gab73]

The Michelin fitted cars COULD have raced with a different setting(Less camber and less scrubbing toe in).
And also driving according to the conditions.
Putting in a chicane in was a smokescreen, not a viable option, just a way to divert the blame and confuse the average Punter.
Exelent way for the one Eyed to have a rant, but that ain't the smart way in the end.

Do you really believe that the Michellin runners elected not to race for any other reason other than safety.
No rule and i repeat NO RULE should be enforced at the sacrafice of safety.
I congratulate all the teams for putting safety before everything else..I really wonder what the mood would have been if MIchellin remained qiet about the problem and we had a fatality in the race.
The Blame for a 6 car race remains with the FIA and not Michellin.
And please dont blame Ferrari.
They had no problems with their tyres and did simply what they where meant to do.RACE

[racer69]

Originally posted by TBVX05
Totally Agree that its not Michelins fault.

It most certainly was Michelin's fault. Bridgestone had suitable tyres. The excuse of the new track surface doesn't wash, Michelin should have anticipated some possible problems and bought more tyre options.

The FIA was just letting everyone know who is still in charge (I'm putting aside for a second the damage that this has done). The bottom line was that every rule was followed and none broken, any solution offered was a rule infringement. (eg...the chicane, you can't run a race on a circuit that was a different layout in qualifying without a pre-race practice session, yet that would have required a rule change because everyone qualified on race fuel).

[SWRT]

Perhaps what happened is what F1 could look like in 2008 unless old Bernie lightens up a bit, its all been talk, now action.
Hopefully we'll get some real racing for Franc, and Webber finally gets his 1st win.
Jordan and Minardi nearly were No-shows too, so it could have been the Ferrari GP?

[wayno]

But the rules were bent in Brazil a couple of years ago when it poured with rain and Bridgestone had chosen an intermediate tyre for their wet option. The race was delayed and then run at the start under safety car until the track dried out on the grounds of safety.
The Michelin wet was far superior, but the rules were still bent. Shouldn't they have been rigidly adhered to then?
The US GP was also a safety concern, but no ground was given. I feel that politics had a lot more to do with this. The GPWC teams happened to be the ones affected here and were basically told "stiff".
I stand by my earlier statement that if the Bridgestone tyres had of been the problem and Ferrari were involved then a compromise would have been found.
There is a sense of one set of rules for some and not for others.

[ferrari fan]

Originally posted by gab73
The Michelin fitted cars COULD have raced with a different setting(Less camber and less scrubbing toe in).
And also driving according to the conditions.
Putting in a chicane in was a smokescreen, not a viable option, just a way to divert the blame and confuse the average Punter.
Exelent way for the one Eyed to have a rant, but that ain't the smart way in the end.

Do you really believe that the Michellin runners elected not to race for any other reason other than safety.
No rule and i repeat NO RULE should be enforced at the sacrafice of safety.
I congratulate all the teams for putting safety before everything else..I really wonder what the mood would have been if MIchellin remained qiet about the problem and we had a fatality in the race.
The Blame for a 6 car race remains with the FIA and not Michellin.
And please dont blame Ferrari.
They had no problems with their tyres and did simply what they where meant to do.RACE

Yes they did NOT want to get beaten in their biggest market USA.
Michelin did bring the wrong tyres, it is THEIR responsebility to provide the teams with appropriate tyres that last the distance.
As Michael said in one of the interviews: "We left some different tyres at home that had a better performance, but were to marginal to be safe".
One races with the package one got and one adjusts the speed to the best outcome and to finnish.The ONLY problem were the MICHELIN TYRES!!!
No other factor comes into it!
Who makes MICHELIN Tyres and who made the decision to bring the two options that were not up to the task??
Who informed the teams that after the accidents THEIR tyres were NOT SAFE?
No such issue was raised with BRIDGESTONE!!
Michelin got caught out; FULL STOP!!

[lukey73]

Originally posted by racer69
It most certainly was Michelin's fault. Bridgestone had suitable tyres. The excuse of the new track surface doesn't wash, Michelin should have anticipated some possible problems and bought more tyre options.

The FIA was just letting everyone know who is still in charge (I'm putting aside for a second the damage that this has done). The bottom line was that every rule was followed and none broken, any solution offered was a rule infringement. (eg...the chicane, you can't run a race on a circuit that was a different layout in qualifying without a pre-race practice session, yet that would have required a rule change because everyone qualified on race fuel).

How many people have watched the race and heard the comments made by James Allen ? From what i am reading i dont beleive it would be many of you. Firstly Indy is not a track any of the teams can test on. Secondly Firestone/Brigdestone ran the Indy 500 there only a few weeks ago on a resurfaced track, they ( Firestone) relayed information to Bridgestone Japan about wear rates and other Data concerning the newly resurfaced track. How can Michelin prepare a tyre on a surface that is really unknown, have a safe tyre on the fastest corner in F1 when they dont have ability to test prior to the event ? Can you imagine the IRL doing things the same on the same track !

This information was given during the broadcast and if you had of heard maybe i may change your decision on who is to blame. As for Ferrari yes we can hold them in contempt as it they who sat on the fence and backed the FIA as they had already stated there position. This race ( if you can call it that ) shouldnt be included in the points and be classed as a non event.

F1 lost a country today and bernie said when they went back there "its a market they have to crack" well today they broke it for good. Good bye USGP it was nice knowing you.

[ferrari fan]

James Allan:eek:
Yes,.... the right person to have indebt knowledge.
The so called : "Horses Mouth" or could it be the other orrifece? :confused:

[Tumbo]

hey FF if you are so anti-rule breaking then where do you stand on Ferrari's 03 move?? When 9/10 teams agree to the Michellin proposal and Michellin teams agree to start from the back of the field then where have they gone wrong???

One team is not greater than a form of motorsport, Ferrari did wrong, but the Mosely and Eccelstone show was appalling

[ferrari fan]

Originally posted by wayno
But the rules were bent in Brazil a couple of years ago when it poured with rain and Bridgestone had chosen an intermediate tyre for their wet option. The race was delayed and then run at the start under safety car until the track dried out on the grounds of safety.
The Michelin wet was far superior, but the rules were still bent. Shouldn't they have been rigidly adhered to then?
The US GP was also a safety concern, but no ground was given. I feel that politics had a lot more to do with this. The GPWC teams happened to be the ones affected here and were basically told "stiff".
I stand by my earlier statement that if the Bridgestone tyres had of been the problem and Ferrari were involved then a compromise would have been found.
There is a sense of one set of rules for some and not for others.
Wayno: the lamest ,most twisted, out of contekt taken lobsided argument.
Was NOT done on request of Bridgestone or any of the BRIDGESTONE TEAMS!
READ THE RULES!!

[ferrari fan]

Originally posted by Tumbo
hey FF if you are so anti-rule breaking then where do you stand on Ferrari's 03 move?? When 9/10 teams agree to the Michellin proposal and Michellin teams agree to start from the back of the field then where have they gone wrong???

One team is not greater than a form of motorsport, Ferrari did wrong, but the Mosely and Eccelstone show was appalling

Where did FERRAI do wrong?
Mosely and Eccelstone are useless, in fact they are VERY dangerous!!
Ferrari 03 move, and my oppinion= please be more specific.

[Tumbo]

I'm not going to enter into an argument- you have made your point very clear FF, we will agree to disagree, I believe that we are all better than the bunch of children we saw carrying on over in the U.S today. Made my point, you've made yours let's leave it at that

(for informations sake I was talking about Brazil 03 and the fact that Ferrari on Bridgestone's were beneficiaries of the compromise, you have addressed it thats fine)

[gab73]

Originally posted by ferrari fan
Yes they did NOT want to get beaten in their biggest market USA.
Michelin did bring the wrong tyres, it is THEIR responsebility to provide the teams with appropriate tyres that last the distance.
As Michael said in one of the interviews: "We left some different tyres at home that had a better performance, but were to marginal to be safe".
One races with the package one got and one adjusts the speed to the best outcome and to finnish.The ONLY problem were the MICHELIN TYRES!!!
No other factor comes into it!
Who makes MICHELIN Tyres and who made the decision to bring the two options that were not up to the task??
Who informed the teams that after the accidents THEIR tyres were NOT SAFE?
No such issue was raised with BRIDGESTONE!!
Michelin got caught out; FULL STOP!!

Since you know the real truth why 16 cars pulled out of the race ( Beacause Michellin runners didnt want to get beaten in front of their biggest market ) like this hasnt happened , the fact that championship leaders and contenders pulled out, valuable tv air time was lost to all teams sponsors and u go on abt conspiracy theories( sales in the us) do u really believe this...
Ill say it again
SAFETY SHOULD NEVER BE COMPRAMISED even if it means bending/breaking the rules.

[ferrari fan]

Originally posted by Tumbo
I'm not going to enter into an argument- you have made your point very clear FF, we will agree to disagree, I believe that we are all better than the bunch of children we saw carrying on over in the U.S today. Made my point, you've made yours let's leave it at that

(for informations sake I was talking about Brazil 03 and the fact that Ferrari on Bridgestone's were beneficiaries of the compromise, you have addressed it thats fine)


Tumbo that is fine by me. There is absolutly no need to start an argument.
We all have an oppinion, never mind what it is.
My point is also JUST an opinion nothing more.
I to do agree that we deserve better.
It shows how much of a buissness/ ego trip F1 realy is and also what is at stake.
The BIG $$ are poured in with one aim only , and that is to recoupe them with interest plus.
It is done under the guise of sport and sporting rules, but the attitude of all players is $$ driven and bend the rules to your betterment.
IUncluding FERRARI/FIAT.

[Dingo]

Originally posted by gab73
Since you know the real truth why 16 cars pulled out of the race
14 mate, 14, nothing ruins a good conspiracy theory like not getting the facts straight :D

[ferrari fan]

Originally posted by gab73
Since you know the real truth why 16 cars pulled out of the race ( Beacause Michellin runners didnt want to get beaten in front of their biggest market ) like this hasnt happened , the fact that championship leaders and contenders pulled out, valuable tv air time was lost to all teams sponsors and u go on abt conspiracy theories( sales in the us) do u really believe this...
Ill say it again
SAFETY SHOULD NEVER BE COMPRAMISED even if it means bending/breaking the rules.

Well then F1 SHOULD be BANNED and with it ALL forms of Motoersport to start with.
Every thing we Humans do/participate in has an inherant DANGER.
Life is a terminal desise, so no more SEX as well ;)

[wayno]

Originally posted by ferrari fan
Wayno: the lamest ,most twisted, out of contekt taken lobsided argument.
Was NOT done on request of Bridgestone or any of the BRIDGESTONE TEAMS!
READ THE RULES!!

Gee, sorry for having an opinion. The rules are the rules and Michelin were in the wrong. I still feel the bigger picture should have been looked at to save the sports face. The Michelin teams were prepared to offer concessions with starting positions, etc. One team prevented this from happening.
Brazil 2003 was delayed and run as it was by the FIA. I didn't say anything about the Bridgestone teams requesting this. The FIA bent the rules then, and could have done so again in America yesterday to avoid this absolute farce.
That was my point, and I still feel it is valid.
Also, there is no need to use capital letters. I do not need to be shouted at and I am not a child. If you disagree with what I have to say that is fine. Just do not talk down to me like that as I don't find it amusing. :mad:

[Martin Thomas]

If I sponsored ferrari and spent big bucks on the team I would be very happy with their professionalism.
I wonder if the mighty hawks could have asked for a rule change at AMII stadium on Friday as they were obviously very underprepared and their safety was in danger;) .
As a person I would have preferred all the teams not race and show some solidarity but then I'm not the one working my arse off to get sponsors and develop a car.

Michellin is the only one to blame, they could not fulfill their contract to various teams. I wonder how Vodaphone would have reacted if ferrari pulled out because others could not prepare their cars correctly??

Changing the track would be a farce.. How can you change a track before a race??

I would be pretty upset if I was in the crowd (hell, even if I stayed up) but venting anger at the guys who came prepared is not the answer. Remember, all teams get the best they can and some went for michellins because they thought they would get an advantage, wether monetry or service or performance-wise.. They were mistaken. About the only good thing to come out of this is that Bernie will suffer just as much, if not more, than anyone else.


Just my take on the situation, thats all.

[Eliot Meadows]

Look out for the new 1/18 scale model of the geese (incestuous morons) who run F1, the jokers who manipulate F1 for their own (& Ferrari's) personal and financial gain, to release a model so we can see them in all their glory. No doubt a one eyed Ferrari supporter like Bert will deride me or anyone else who dares to criticize the circus that is formula one today, wooden planks underneath, tread, of sorts, on their tyres, etc etc, a staggering raft of rule changes that cost the teams immense amounts of money with little change in the quality of racing. As many of the previous posts have opined the total farce that was the US GP shows that F1 needs to change in a big way so as to be fair to all teams and get back to racing and not empire bulding. The whole circus depends on public attendance and acceptance and this weekends "show" is the worst possible outcome for all concerned.
End of rant.

[Martin Thomas]

Originally posted by ferrari fan
so no more SEX as well ;)

Oh gawwd, not you too, you must know my missus..:D

[Chriso]

I thought the Americans were well behaved, as they were only throwing Bud Light...;)

[ferrari fan]

Originally posted by Eliot Meadows
Look out ...... No doubt a one eyed Ferrari supporter like Bert will deride me or anyone else who dares to criticize the circus that is formula one today,..... End of rant.

Well ,well here we go.It is starting.
Personal attacks and for good measure a fair dinkum dummy spit.
Boys and Girls Good Night, time to pull the curtains.
If one cannot have a decent, non personal and factual discussion regarding a subject like this then the curtain will be pulled by me.

[intercooled]

Originally posted by ferrari fan
The whole circuis of F1 is shifting to Daytona this week for the next GP.
Kimmy and Michael together with Mark are in a good position to set a top Qualifing time.
Alonso and Nick together with the wild one are in a not so good situation.
High speed is what this circuit seems to be all about with a zig zag infield section.
The young lady that did so well in the 500 is having a drive and the hype regarding her is generating some serious publicity:)
David Letterman is a sponsor of her as she drivesone of his cars.

Prediction; To Hard ;)

The first post in this thread.

The third word sums it up.

Never watch F1 and haven't for years, but caught Martin Brundle interviewing Bernie Ecclestone while channel-hopping, and then him trying to interview a startled Mrs Ecclestone. Caught up with what was going on shortly after and found myself alternating between disappointment for the fans that were there and hysterical laughter at the ludicrousness of it all.

'Autosport' magazine on Thursday could be fun.

[Dingo]

Originally posted by ferrari fan
Well ,well here we go.It is starting.
Personal attacks and for good measure a fair dinkum dummy spit.
Boys and Girls Good Night, time to pull the curtains.
If one cannot have a decent, non personal and factual discussion regarding a subject like this then the curtain will be pulled by me.
Don't hate the player, hate the game...

[wayno]

Originally posted by ferrari fan
Well ,well here we go.It is starting.
Personal attacks and for good measure a fair dinkum dummy spit.
Boys and Girls Good Night, time to pull the curtains.
If one cannot have a decent, non personal and factual discussion regarding a subject like this then the curtain will be pulled by me.

Bert there is nothing anymore offensive in that than what you posted for me a while ago. Take it in stride and try and answer it with a reasoned, rational reply.

[brchi17]

I came across this comment and I don't know if it's been posted before, but if it has, then I apologise.

Below is the only comment I could find from the FIA regarding the USA GP and it was on The Official F1 website (http://www.formula1.com/race/news/3207/740.html)

The FIA’s only public comment on the matter came before the start of the race, when it published Race Director Charlie Whiting’s reply to Michelin’s request to have speeds somehow reduced in Turn 13.

Regarding the potential insertion of a chicane, Whiting stated: “To change the course in order to help some of the teams with a performance problem caused by their failure to bring suitable equipment to the race would be a breach of the rules and grossly unfair to those teams which have come to Indianapolis with the correct tyres.�

The FIA also outlined a number of other options available to the Michelin teams, including running more slowly in Turn 13, running new tyres and incurring a penalty, or repeatedly changing tyres, subject to valid safety reasons.

With those options deemed unacceptable by Michelin and their teams, there followed the bizarre spectacle of 14 cars peeling into the Indianapolis pit lane to retire at the end of the formation lap.

I think this comment here in lies who the FIA believe are to blame for this (knowing that they would never accept responsibility).

Sure rules are rules, but is cutting off your nose to spite your face the right thing to do ???

You don't have to be blind Freddy to work out that the overwhelming public opinion is that the FIA got it wrong big time.

cheers. :)

[REDVRSS]

Interesting to get the feelings at the (NON)USGP from the local rag.

indystar.com (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID =/20050620/SPORTS0103/506200361)


odds on a USGP '06?

[toad]

Actually everyone in the sport except Ferrari and FIA have been calling for a control tyre. This would have solved a lot of the problems this year including the Indy fiasco.

[Dingo]

Originally posted by toad
Actually everyone in the sport except Ferrari and FIA have been calling for a control tyre. This would have solved a lot of the problems this year including the Indy fiasco.
Would it though? If everyone had been running Michelins, there would have been no race...

[wayno]

Matt, I think if there was a control tyre then none of this would have happened. Without anyone to compete against there is no need to push the limits with what can be done. Thus a slower but totally safe tyre would have been in use.
Also with a control tyre I couldn't see a problem with changing for a more suitable construction as everyone would be on the same rubber. I doubt anyone would complain.
Michelin teams have been called up before the World Motorsport Council on June 29. I really wish this whole issue would go away and we could look forward to the next race in France.

[Gan88]

Formula One is a technical sport- not some sort of entertainment format masquerading as a sporting event.

Going to control tyres does nothing for the spirit of competition and socialist sentiment should never play a role in sport.

[Leigh]

Interesting comments on this thread...

Just to clarify a few points...and add some of my own...

Tyre constructors have a list of FIA APPROVED tyres...same with fuel etc. They must nominate ahead of a race which tyre construction/compound etc they will be taking to a race (it is unreasonable to take ALL tyre contructions/compounds to each race as there are so many variationa).

As has been discussed, the track had been resurfaced (as it had been two years prior)...given the recent nature of this change, and the massive difference in grip, is it really REASONABLE to expect Michelin to have 20-20 foresight and project that there would be masive increases in wear? Remember, Bridgestone had inside knowledge via its subsidiary Firestone...

Why do people expect teams to run if they know they are going to lose (i.e. by going slow)...IMO this would have been just as farcicle, but would not have the intended effect. Similarly, a tyre change every 10 laps would mean autiomatic loss...

In a similar but unrelated event, the truck race at Australia's Thunderdome was cancelled part-way through a race for safety reasons...front left tyres were blowing after 8 laps and trucks were slamming into the wall...were the organisers fined for not having the tyre manufacturers supply adequate tyres? Were the tyre manufacturers blamed for not providing same? Were the tyre manufacturers charged with not having 20/20 foresight?

Had Senna not insisted on racing a "repaired" vehicle, he would still be around...

Lets just step back a little and look at the bigger picture...Driver safety is paramount...anything less is farcicle.

Oh and FF, the large profile tyres are far more advanced than low profile equivalents on other race cars...

Cheers

[lukey73]

Originally posted by lcfp2297
Interesting comments on this thread...

Just to clarify a few points...and add some of my own...

Tyre constructors have a list of FIA APPROVED tyres...same with fuel etc. They must nominate ahead of a race which tyre construction/compound etc they will be taking to a race (it is unreasonable to take ALL tyre contructions/compounds to each race as there are so many variationa).

As has been discussed, the track had been resurfaced (as it had been two years prior)...given the recent nature of this change, and the massive difference in grip, is it really REASONABLE to expect Michelin to have 20-20 foresight and project that there would be masive increases in wear? Remember, Bridgestone had inside knowledge via its subsidiary Firestone...

Why do people expect teams to run if they know they are going to lose (i.e. by going slow)...IMO this would have been just as farcicle, but would not have the intended effect. Similarly, a tyre change every 10 laps would mean autiomatic loss...

In a similar but unrelated event, the truck race at Australia's Thunderdome was cancelled part-way through a race for safety reasons...front left tyres were blowing after 8 laps and trucks were slamming into the wall...were the organisers fined for not having the tyre manufacturers supply adequate tyres? Were the tyre manufacturers blamed for not providing same? Were the tyre manufacturers charged with not having 20/20 foresight?

Had Senna not insisted on racing a "repaired" vehicle, he would still be around...

Lets just step back a little and look at the bigger picture...Driver safety is paramount...anything less is farcicle.

Oh and FF, the large profile tyres are far more advanced than low profile equivalents on other race cars...

Cheers

Well put leigh, the bigger picture needs to be looked at and some people on are forgetting that. F1 has been lost in the American market as i said before by the Actions of 3 people, its sad day when the actions of so few affect so many.

Luke

[toad]

Originally posted by Gan88
Formula One is a technical sport- not some sort of entertainment format masquerading as a sporting event.

Going to control tyres does nothing for the spirit of competition and socialist sentiment should never play a role in sport.

Perhaps this is true. But t is going to be very interesting to see how the new formula takes off in September with control engines, chassis, tyres, testing etc.

However I am not sure how control tyres makes it less sporting than the current rules which restrict aero, engine configuration, tyre size, pretty much everything that is technical is restricted in some way.

[Dingo]

Originally posted by wayno
Matt, I think if there was a control tyre then none of this would have happened. Without anyone to compete against there is no need to push the limits with what can be done. Thus a slower but totally safe tyre would have been in use.
Also with a control tyre I couldn't see a problem with changing for a more suitable construction as everyone would be on the same rubber. I doubt anyone would complain.
Maybe they're not "pushing the limits". Maybe some engineer forgot to take into consideration the banking on one corner of one racetrack that they race on. And what if, as has been said, your control tyre supplier was unable to guarantee that their chosen compound could sustain 300 kilometres of racing - and that an alternative compound couldn't be guaranteed either?

I am not here to oppose or support a control tyre, but to try and understand why this happened...

[toad]

Originally posted by Dingo


I am not here to oppose or support a control tyre, but to try and understand why this happened...

I would guess a miscalculation of the new surface at Indy. Michelin have been faster than BS all year so is it coincidental that they are also more prone to failure in extreme conditions? Perhaps FIA is right that BS brought their stronger/slower tyres to the US but Michelin failed to do so?

[Hey Charger]

Irrespective of everything...it came down to egos and not thinking for the sport in the USA and the event for those people who paid good money...they might as well forget hosting it next year or as they have a year to run on their contract at the indiannapolis speedway make a public apology and have the tickets at half price....but that wont happen somebodies ego will be bruised and we cant have that now can we???

[Chriso]

Taken from www.champcarsworldseries.com

Indianapolis (June 19, 2005) -- The Bridgestone Presents the Champ Car World Series Powered by Ford has always been a series about its fans, and in support of the international open-wheel racing community, the organizers of the Champ Car Grand Prix of Cleveland Presented by U.S. Bank and Champ Car officials have announced that tickets for Sunday's Formula 1 United States Grand Prix will be honored on June 26.

...i know this series is a pet hate of wayno's but theres some brownie points :D

[Leigh]

Originally posted by toad
I would guess a miscalculation of the new surface at Indy. Michelin have been faster than BS all year so is it coincidental that they are also more prone to failure in extreme conditions? Perhaps FIA is right that BS brought their stronger/slower tyres to the US but Michelin failed to do so?
My understanding was that Bridgestone developed (well pulled off the shelf) a new tyre that given the Firestone results would be likely to make the distance...yes this was stronger/slower than other tyres in the BS bank, but it probably would not have been used in racing otherwise...

Agree it was a miscalculation on Michelins part, but was it an unreasonable miscalculation given the lack of information? I say not...

[Ford Boy]

Originally posted by ferrari fan
Well then F1 SHOULD be BANNED and with it ALL forms of Motoersport to start with.
Every thing we Humans do/participate in has an inherant DANGER.
Life is a terminal desise, so no more SEX as well ;)

OHH!!! Cmon FF, 2 of my favourite past times, and you wanna take them away? No fair! :D

Cheers!

[toad]

This is like a bad marriage. Any disagreement gets blown out of proportion and parties not working together to a positive result.

If there was a good marriage between FIA and the non-Ferrari teams then they would have collectively worked out some resolution for the good of the sport.

Who is to blame...I would personally put the blame at the heels of FIA for favouring Ferrari/BS combination in the overall picture over the last few years and allowing this split in the teams to take place at all.

[Hey Charger]

Originally posted by toad
Who is to blame...I would personally put the blame at the heels of FIA for favouring Ferrari/BS combination in the overall picture over the last few years and allowing this split in the teams to take place at all.

Well said..... but on the other had its all about competition and freedom of choice..which is a joke to begin with in F1

[BILLFORD1]

I especially like the latest announcement that on June 29th when the teams who pulled out & didn't race rather than spend the next week attending funerals turn up for the "Bernie/Ferrari Fest", they apparently can standby for Fines, Loss of points & possible Suspensions !!! Good one, that seems like a surefire way to totally kill off what remains of Formula Ferrari !!...I don't really care, lost interest anyway around the time that Nigel went to Indy cars......

[wayno]

Originally posted by Chriso
Taken from www.champcarsworldseries.com

Indianapolis (June 19, 2005) -- The Bridgestone Presents the Champ Car World Series Powered by Ford has always been a series about its fans, and in support of the international open-wheel racing community, the organizers of the Champ Car Grand Prix of Cleveland Presented by U.S. Bank and Champ Car officials have announced that tickets for Sunday's Formula 1 United States Grand Prix will be honored on June 26.

...i know this series is a pet hate of wayno's but theres some brownie points :D

I don't like the series as I don't agree with the way it's gone. I can't stomach anything that's supposed to be a "premier" series with the same engines. There has to be some variety.
I must congratulate them though, as this is a great gesture and marketing wise it will do them no harm at all!

[The Hammer]

And here i was thinking "Finally,what a great competitive season we have".
Well this Sport/Business has lost me.

Rename it Formula EGO

I still remember the way this season started out with Stoddart taking out an Supreme Court Injunction to start his old cars at the season opener , here in Melb. Only to be threatened with the event being cancelled because of him, if he didn't reneg on it.

The only winners out of all of this will be those damn Lawyers again.

Spectators will sue the Event. ( for "pain & suffering ! ")

The Merchandise sellers will sue the Event. ( for lost earnings)

The Event will sue Bernie. ( for him having his head in the Sand )

Bernie will sue the Non-Starters. ( for the ego trip )

The Team Sponsers will sue the Non-Starters ( for Non-Publicity )

The Non-Starters will sue Michelin. ( for the stuff up )

I can just see all the lawyers checking the colour charts for their new Rolls Royce's, Bentleys, Merc's right now.

***** MESSAGE TO BERNIE *****

Put down your Violin.
Rome Is Burning

;)

[The Hammer]

Taken from Minardi's Web Site.
9 out of 10 teams agreed to a temporary chicane at turn 13.

Can you guess the 1 team to spoil the compromise ??


http://www.minardi.it/press/dettaglio.asp?IDComuni cato=1873&LN=UK&IDGara=131&IDComunicatiTipo=5

In view of the situation that took place at today’s United States Grand Prix, the Minardi F1 Team has the following comment only:

PAUL STODDART, Team Principal, Minardi Cosworth

“First of all, our sincere apologies go out to the race fans, both here at Indianapolis and indeed, around the world, for the farce that took place at Indianapolis this afternoon. This really was a time when Formula One needed to put sport above politics, but sadly, this did not occur. Earlier on today, nine of the 10 competing teams had agreed that, in the interests of safety, a temporary chicane needed to be placed before the final turn, and that unless that took place, the nine teams would not compete.

“This idea was rejected by FIA President, Max Mosley, and in no uncertain terms, the teams were told that, should this occur, there would be no race. This, in my opinion, is clearly not in the interests of the sport, the American public, or Formula One fans around the world.

“I have complete sympathy with the Michelin teams, and can take neither satisfaction from, nor interest in, this afternoon’s race, if you can call it that. For the avoidance of doubt, Minardi only participated when it became clear that Jordan had changed its decision to compete from this morning.

“I sincerely hope that valuable lessons are taken away from here today before we destroy the sport we love with politics. A solution, which would have allowed the United States Grand Prix to have proceeded unaffected today existed, but was resisted by the FIA and not supported by Ferrari, who claimed it was not their problem�.

[a9x]

this is an email i recieved from the mark webber supporters club

2005 UNITED STATES GRAND PRIX


Indianapolis (USA), 19th June 2005. The Michelin teams deeply regret the position
that they have been put in today and would like to apologise to all the spectators,
TV viewers, Formula One fans and sponsors for not being able to take part in
today's USA Grand Prix.

Following Ralf Schumacher's accident on Friday morning, we were advised by
Michelin that none of the tyres that were available to the teams could be used
unless the vehicle speed in turn 13 was reduced. Without this Michelin did not
consider the tyre to be safe to be used for the race.

All the teams are confident in Michelin and trust their advice as we know they are
competent and responsible and their written instruction to us not to race unless
changes to the circuit were made was accepted.

After final data from Michelin became available at 06.30 on Sunday morning it
became clear that Michelin were not able to guarantee the safety of the drivers.
Numerous discussions and meetings took place to find a safe solution to the
problem. Every possibility for the race to go ahead in a safe manner was explored.
The only practical solution was for a chicane to be installed prior to Turn 13 and
nine of the teams were prepared to run under these conditions even forgoing
championship points or by allowing non-Michelin teams to take top positions on the
grid.

Unfortunately all proposals were rejected by the FIA.

Safety is always the first concern of any team and the FIA. Regrettably the teams
were obliged to follow Michelin's requirements not to race.

We are totally aware that the USA is an important market for Formula One and
there is an obligation for Formula One to promote itself in a positive and
professional manner. It is sad that we couldn't showcase Formula One in the
manner we would have liked today.

[Andrew]

The FIA have now charged the seven Michelin teams rather than Michelin themselves...

From Planet F1
http://www.planetf1.com//news/story_20025.shtml

"As predicted, the Michelin seven have been charged with bringing the sport into disrepute during the Indy fiasco by the FIA.

In a letter sent to all seven of the teams, the FIA declared that at next Wednesday's hearing, they would 'answer charges that, in breach of the above, you committed one or more acts prejudicial to the interests of a competition, namely the 2005 United States Grand Prix and/or to the interests of motor sport'.

The specific charges against the Michelin teams are that they:

- failed to ensure that you had a supply of suitable tyres for the race and/or
- wrongfully refused to all allow your cars to start the race and/or
- wrongfully refused to allow your cars to race, subject to a speed restriction in one corner which was safe for such tyres as you had available and/or
- combined with other teams to make a demonstration damaging to the image of Formula One by pulling into the pits immediately before the start of the race.

'And that you failed to notify the stewards of your intention not to race in breach of article 131 of the FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations.'

It would appear that the FIA are blaming the seven Michelin teams, rather than Michelin themselves, for the debacle, suggesting that the teams should have simply slowed down as they approached the now notorious turn 13."

This is going to widen the gap between the FIA, Bernie and an extension of the Concorde Agreement. Maybe the GPWC just had new life breathed into it....

[toad]

This is all BS. Bring on the A1 GP

http://www.a1gp.com/home.html

[BB]

With Michelin facing exclusion from Formula One over it's tyre failures, the Michelin shod teams are also looking at exclusion due to safety reasons as their whole package was designed around Michelin tyres. If a resolution cannot be reached we might see the seven teams involved quitting F1.
This is either utter madness or a well orchestrated plot by the "revolutionaries" to unseat the powers at the FIA/Formula 1 and get the GPWC to the next level.

All I hope is that when the dust settles we do not have 2 series. Nobody will win that battle.

[BILLFORD1]

It would seem that Bernie/Max/ rest of F1 Hierarchy have, whilst being busy counting their pay packets, feeding the lawers & generally wanking spiders, forgotten 2 things.... A. They are supposed to be the pinnacle of planetory motorsport, and B. Without spectators to attend decent events they may as well go back to their spiders !!! They have got til the next round to get all their poop in one sock or every bugger will be watching the Tennis instead !! :D

[Leigh]

From the moment Toyota's Ralf Schumacher hit the wall during Friday practice for the US Grand Prix, and until 14 Michelin-shod cars pulled into the pits at the end of the formation lap for the race, you just had to believe that somehow everything will work out in the end. It usually does, after all. In hindsight, the Indianapolis weekend was a powder keg ignited, and Adam Cooper was at the scene, watching it inevitably explode. He brings a detailed account of how it all went wrong

When Ralf Schumacher hit the wall on Friday at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, none of the journalists there realised quite what the implications would be, even when it emerged that his teammate Ricardo Zonta had also suffered a left rear failure. I can remember us all getting excited after the first session in Bahrain last year, when there was a series of spectacular punctures on Michelin cars - all traced back to a dodgy kerb, which was subsequently sorted.

Last weekend, the problem seemed slow to gather momentum. Only gradually did we learn that teams other than Toyota had suffered signs of imminent problems with the heavily loaded left rear. What was worrying was that they seemed to involve third cars that had run a lot of laps.

Saturday June 18th

Early on Saturday morning it become apparent that a crisis was looming. The technical directors of the Michelin teams held a summit meeting with the company, and it was decided that in practice teams should run no more than 10 laps on their new sets. I concluded that this was done in part to ensure that, in addition to the new set for qualifying and the race, there was a low mileage back up set on hand should it be required on Sunday.

There also a mandate from Michelin that pressures be run above a certain limit. It was revealed early on that Toyota had been running pressures very low. Indeed, Zonta had been the first man to run a flying lap on Friday, and when he did so it was very apparent that the car was virtually dragging along the ground as it kicked up the dust round the banking. Higher pressures have always been inherently safer, but there's a price to pay in terms of handling.

The other story that began to gather momentum after the meeting concerned the 'Barcelona' tyres. Michelin had only brought two types of tyre to Indy, something that had happened at only one other race this year. At most events there might be up to four or five options chosen by its teams in the weeks before the race. But this time there were only two, and worryingly both types had been implicated. They shared a common construction, and there was clearly no fallback position.

That's when Michelin decided that it was worth calling Clermont-Ferrand and asking for a third type of tyre to be shipped over, pronto, as an emergency measure. The company described these as Barcelona tyres, different in compound (and date of manufacture) to the tyres already in the States, but identical in construction.

These were scheduled to arrive on Sunday, but there was a small problem. There was absolutely nothing in the rules that allowed them to be introduced so late in the weekend. Regulations being challenged included a change to the type of tyres declared and marked up at the start of the weekend, a change on the type chosen for Saturday/Sunday, a change from qualifying to the race, and the use of tyres outside the main allocation of four sets. It was decided to get the tyres on a plane at all costs, and then sort out the detail later.

Nick Shorrock, Director of Michelin F1 Activities; briefs the press Saturday morningSo on Saturday morning, the paying punters got short shrift as the Michelin runners did very few laps in practice, and that included lots of ins and outs and careful checking. It was also obvious that some cars, notably the Williams and Red Bull, really didn't like running the high pressures. Some wondered aloud whether all teams really did stick to the mandated pressures, at least for one-lap qualifying.

A further side issue emerged as a result of this focus. It's been very noticeable this year how pressures drop under a safety car period. Usually that manifests itself in dodgy handling for a couple of laps, but here there were serious concerns that in there could be a failure in the immediate aftermath of a safety car. The Michelin group concluded that a good solution would be to have three laps of 'virtual' safety car, at much higher speeds than those attainable behind a Mercedes, to allow drivers to get their tyres up to pressure. Again, there was nothing in the rules to enable this to happen.

So already on Saturday morning two major stories were emerging that involved changing or waiving regulations. I wondered how that might work out, so I asked the oracle on these matters.

"The procedure is that ten teams are going to have to agree something," said Minardi's Paul Stoddart. "In the interests of safety I will agree, and let's just say that Jordan and [Ferrari's Jean] Todt agree, the other two Bridgestone runners, you're going to then have [FIA president] Max [Mosley]'s agreement, you're going to have to then have Bernie [Ecclestone]'s agreement, so the 12 Concorde signatories are going to have to agree. Then Max has to request, I believe is the right word, the stewards to go along with it.

"The last time such a request was made people will remember was in Melbourne, when I had 10 signatures, and the stewards turned down such a request. They were sympathetic to it, but it was outside the regulations. This is clearly outside the regulations, so it will be interesting to see what happens.

"I have the greatest sympathy for Michelin, it's a great company, and I have great empathy with the teams that are affected by it. But there's no clear-cut way out of this. Whatever happens, the events that take place in the next few hours here, or perhaps even as much as the next 24 hours, are going to have far reaching ramifications. If something is rushed through because of circumstances, I can't see that not having wider ramifications down the track."

Love him or loath him, the bloke is pretty switched on. And he set me thinking. I could already see that this could all come down to the opinion of one man, someone who is not known to like being backed into a corner. And it wasn't Max Mosley.

By chance I bumped into Jean Todt as he went into the Ferrari garage. What did he think of the safety car idea, I wondered?

"I don't talk to Michelin, I only talk to Bridgestone," he grinned. It was was pretty clear that there would be no room for manoeuvre.

There were no obvious Michelin failures during Saturday, and only later did it emerge that, on closer inspection, problems were again developing with some low mileage tyres. Investigations continued at the track, and also elsewhere.

Some of the Friday tyres, damaged and otherwise, had gone to a Michelin facility in South Carolina, for detailed examination. It was vital that Michelin could replicate the failure. The US facility had two test rigs, but neither combined high speed running with the loadings experienced at Indy, so tests were inconclusive.

Things moved quickly on Saturday afternoon. At a routine meeting of the team principals, the question of the 'virtual' safety car was brought up, and Todt made it clear that he would not allow any changes to normal procedures. Jordan's Colin Kolles later told me that he was amazed that there was no wider discussion of the tyre issue, and Stoddart repeated that sentiment in a press statement released on Wednesday.

Through the day, the main focus was on the substitution of the Barcelona tyre. At his regular afternoon press gathering, Ron Dennis said that it would be a sensible solution, and that he'd be prepared to allow the six Bridgestone cars start at the front. Somehow that didn't seem like the sort of compromise that would interest Mr. Todt.

In public there still seemed to be some optimism in the Michelin camp that its investigations would pinpoint a problem - perhaps with a specific batch of the Indy tyres - and that there would be some answers. Pierre Dupasquier said he expected news by 2:00am.

It wasn't reported at the time, but in addition to the work going on in South Carolina, Michelin sent some of the Saturday tyres to a much closer facility in Akron, Ohio. They travelled in style in McLaren's private jet, with the FIA technical delegate, Jo Bauer, chaperoning them in a second plane loaned by Ron Dennis. After all, those used in qualifying were in effect subject to parc ferme rules.

But even while all this work was going on, the goalposts had moved. Late afternoon discussions, and a meeting in the Michelin office, led to a dramatic conclusion. At around 7:00pm I wandered down to the paddock to see if there was any news. These days the place empties quickly on Saturday. Because of parc ferme, the mechanics have nothing to do, and at tracks with a bustling city nearby, there's little reason to stay - usually the only folk left behind are technical directors and race engineers, who are plotting strategy.

So the Indy paddock was indeed eerily quiet, just a few folk sitting at tables here and there, and all of them top management. An approach to a technical director of a Michelin team left me speechless.

Ron Dennis"They're now saying we're only going to race with a chicane," he said. So what about the much-vaunted Barcelona tyres, which were supposed to resolve the situation?

"We can't use those. We don't know anything about them and they have the same construction anyway."

I couldn't believe my ears. A few brief strictly off-the-record chats with team bosses, made easier because I was the only member of the press around, confirmed the story. It really was true, and what worried me most was the air of resignation that everyone shared. They knew that this was serious stuff.

The team bosses were preparing a letter to be delivered to the FIA. When I saw a solemn Ron Dennis marching across the paddock from the Michelin office, speaking on his GSM and clutching a piece of paper, I knew what it was. I also knew it wouldn't be a good time to ask any questions.

The only note of optimism was that most seemed convinced that the chicane would eventually happen. Firstly Bernie Ecclestone wanted it, and secondly it simply had to be there if we were going to have a race. Things always work out in the end, don't they?

I wasn't so sure. For all his influence, and contrary to what many cynics think, Ecclestone cannot impose such big decisions on the officials of the FIA, upon whose shoulders ultimate responsibility for all sporting and regulatory matters lie. My instinct that they had little time for the chicane plan was confirmed when I saw the key people as they left the circuit. It just couldn't be done, was the gist.

However, those guys report to Max Mosley, who was back in Europe. If he agreed with the idea, he had the power to make things happen. It was around 2:00am in Monaco when the Michelin meeting took place, and even Bernie wouldn't call Max that late to sound him out. Nothing could happen until the morning.

The other side of the question was what Ferrari thought. By this time Todt had gone to his hotel, but the rest of his management team were still present. They made it absolutely clear that the idea of a chicane was a complete nonsense, and that rules were black and white.

Anyway, I'd drawn a sample Bus Stop on a handy Indy map in a notebook. A senior member of the Ferrari team took it from me, drew a spectacular Hot Wheels style loop in the middle of Turn 12, and wrote 'Michelin Only' on it.

It was easy to mock, but perhaps the Ferrari folk hadn't realised quite what could unfold on Sunday. The attitude was that Michelin had screwed up, end of story. And what would happen if Bridgestone had been in similar trouble? They had a good point, as six versus 14 would have been a very different equation. Indeed FIA people shared that concern - what if we build a chicane to please Ferrari? How would that look?

The Michelin teams had put some serious thought into the chicane proposals. Team bosses and technical directors are no mugs, and they knew it had to be done properly. As an ex-driver, BAR sporting director Gil de Ferran offered advice, while McLaren helped to provide some provisional drawings. But when everyone eventually packed up and left, we were still in limbo.

Sunday June 19th

Fast forward to Sunday. The only news from all the Michelin research was bad - it was confirmed that there was no way that the Indy tyres could be raced under normal circumstances. And the Barcelona tyres were still off the menu.

Bernie Ecclestone, Charlie Whiting, Jean TodtMeanwhile an early morning phone call between Mosley and race director Charlie Whiting reaffirmed the FIA's position. Clearly any conversations between Max and Bernie had not produced the result the teams wanted.

Whiting composed a reply to the letter from Michelin requesting a chicane was composed. It basically said a chicane won't happen - why don't you just drive slowly round Turn 13?

This idea wasn't quite as silly as it sounded. Later the FIA told the teams that it would be willing to operate a speed trap, similar to that used in the pitlane. This could be done by asking the FOM technicians responsible for the cabling around the track to create an extra loop at Turn 13. Any driver breaking the speed limit, whatever that might be, would be penalised.

The key advantage of this, according to the FIA, was that it did not involve the Bridgestone runners in any way, unlike a chicane. However, the prospect of having two lanes of traffic running round the banking, with a huge speed differential, did have its drawbacks. Not least the fact that four of the guys in the high-speed lane would be the Minardi/Jordan rookies. How safe would that be?

FIA folk were also somewhat bemused to find that neither Michelin nor the teams had a specific figure for a safe speed limit. That lack of a suitable number was confirmed to me after the race by a leading team technical guy, who said that it was just taken for granted that the chicane would have taken off sufficient speed to make Turn 13 safe.

There was also a feeling in the FIA camp that Michelin didn't know for sure that speed through Turn 13 was the real cause of the problem, although that's not the impression I got from the Michelin camp. Anyway, it seemed to me one of the key aims was to specifically avoid a crash at high speed on the banking. Neutralising that corner would have been a major step in the right direction, even if other areas of the track were still vulnerable.

Gradually folk arriving in the paddock began to realise that something serious was up. The key event was a meeting held in Ecclestone's office in the paddock, which kicked off sometime after 9:00am.

Those in attendance, although not all from the very start, were Tony George (IMS); Pierre Dupasquier and Neil Shorrock (Michelin); Flavio Briatore and Pat Symonds (Renault); Nick Fry and Gil de Ferran (BAR); Sam Michael (Williams); Ron Dennis and Martin Whitmarsh (McLaren); John Howett and Tsutomo Tomita (Toyota); Peter Sauber; Christian Horner and Guenther Steiner (Red Bull); Colin Kolles (Jordan); and Paul Stoddart (Minardi).

Ferrari was not represented, despite the fact that the team's own office was right next door. Charlie Whiting was summoned, made a brief appearance to state the FIA's case, and left. Apart from that, the FIA was not present. But Max Mosley made regular contributions from the other end of a phone line, speaking to Bernie, George and Briatore.

I went along to doorstep at around 9:45am, to be ready to gather reactions when everyone emerged. A crowd of photographers and TV crews had gathered, with the same idea. Little did we know that it would be a wait of nearly two hours.

Fortunately, there was some interesting comings and goings, and the fact that some of the inside action was visible through the tinted glass helped the time pass. The main meeting area was mostly masked by partitions, but whenever anyone came out to make a phone call or a have a quick side discussion, they had nowhere to hide.

Here's how some of the action unfolded in front of my eyes as time marched on:
10:30am: Bernie leaves the main meeting and gets in a huddle with Stoddart and Kolles. He appears to be doing all the talking.
10:37am: Ecclestone emerges from the office. He briefly teases the waiting media before heading straight next door to Ferrari. He meets Todt.
10:43am: Ecclestone returns to the meeting.
10:50am: Tony George leaves, a look of exasperation on his face. He says nothing to the media. He doesn't come back.
10:58am: Frank Williams is escorted into the meeting by his personal assistant. He's usually a late arrival at the circuit, but it's a surprise to realise that he wasn't already there.
11:03am: Ecclestone and Briatore step out of the main meeting area for a private chat. Flavio is animated.
11:07am: Against expectations, the drivers suddenly appear. They've been in the drivers' briefing and have been called to the meeting by Ecclestone. Fernando Alonso leads the queue, but he wrong slots and heads up the paddock stairs. David Coulthard sees me and says, 'Is this Bernie's office?' One by one, the others follow him in. All except the Ferrari drivers.
11:09am: After a quick trip to the Ferrari office - presumably to seek the approval of Todt - Rubens Barrichello enters the meeting. He shakes hands with Juan Pablo Montoya. Michael follows a minute later and is welcomed by BAR's Nick Fry. Almost immediately Michael heads out again and returns to the Ferrari office. Has he had second thoughts?
11:12am: Michael is back, looking very nonchalant with hands in pockets. Ferrari team manager and sporting director Stefano Domenicali follows him in. Briatore appears to be doing most of the talking to the group of drivers. The Ferrari guys reportedly say that they personally have no problem with a chicane. Nick Heidfeld stands on a chair so he can see what's going on.
11:17am: Kimi Raikkonen leaves the meeting, to be followed by most of the other drivers. A handful stays behind to continue the discussions.
11.27am: It appears to be all over, as the team bosses leave. Only the two Michelin men stay behind, for a brief private chat, before they too bale out. Most of the participants say nothing and head straight back to their own offices.

Not that anyone knew exactly what to say, except Paul Stoddart, who as usual acted as a de facto spokesman for the group. He claimed that the race would go ahead with nine teams with a chicane - possibly with non-Championship status - or with two cars without a chicane.

His Wednesday statement detailed how desperate things were getting in that meeting: "Most present felt the only option was to install the chicane and race, if necessary, without Ferrari, but with 18 cars, in what would undoubtedly be a non-Championship race. We discussed with Bernie the effects of the FIA withdrawing its staff, and agreed among ourselves a race director, a safety car driver, and other essential positions, and all agreed that, under the circumstances, what was of paramount importance was that the race must go ahead. All further agreed that since we would most likely be denied FIA facilities, such as scales and post-race scrutineering, every competitor would instruct his team and drivers to conduct themselves in the spirit of providing an entertaining race for the good of F1."

We now had exactly an hour before the pitlane opened and the cars were scheduled to head out on to the grid. This was utter madness. It was obvious that there was now no time to do anything, and yet some key people seemed convinced that the chicane would have to happen, and that work was about to start.

[Leigh]

Bumping into ITV's Jim Rosenthal, I suggested he ought to send a crew out to Turn 13 to see what was happening. "They're already there," he said. "And nothing is going on."

Up and down the paddock there were little huddles. Briatore was again in animated conversation, this time with Norbert Haug and FIA's Alan Donnelly, Max Mosley's key advisor and his eyes and ears at races. Flavio then took Donnelly to one side. The Brit seemed to be doing little else but using those ears.

At 12:03pm Bernie appeared at the 'poor' end of the paddock and talked briefly to Kolles, and then to Stoddart. Fry, Tomita and Horner joined in the latter gathering. Such discussions were now going on in public. Bernie looked pretty hassled. "It's nobody's fault," he muttered as he headed off.

Another meeting was convened in Bernie's office as the minutes ticked away, and it was clear that there was going to be no easy resolution. When 12:30pm came around, there came the sound of an engine firing up. It was Jordan's Tiago Monteiro, heading to the grid. Over the next couple of minutes, he was joined by Schumacher, Barrichello and Narain Karthikeyan. Clearly, Jordan wasn't party to any boycott agreement with the other eight teams represented in the earlier meeting. All the other drivers sat strapped in their cars in the garages.

Back at Bernie's office, things were really getting desperate. Red Bull team manager David Stubbs arrived and put his head round the door. What am I supposed to with my cars, he seemed to be asking? Finally, at 12:38pm, the bosses emerged once more.

"We are all going to the grid, anyway," said Toyota's John Howett. He didn't elaborate. Briatore looked more upset than ever, while Stoddart was seething. His thoughts about Kolles were certainly not for printing. After the race the Jordan boss said that he'd agreed merely that he would race, with or without the chicane.

It was a strange atmosphere on the grid, with more urgent conversations going on. The drivers already knew that they were only going to trundle round. Some of them were sorely tempted to do more that. Ron Dennis had both his hands on Kimi Raikkonen's shoulders, and was giving him a serious eyeball-to-eyeball pep talk. These guys have it in their blood to go racing on Sunday afternoons, and what they were faced with just didn't compute. They were as much victims as anyone else.

Interviewed live by ITV's Martin Brundle on the grid, Bernie had a chance to set the record straight, apologise on behalf of F1 for the unfortunate situation that had arisen, even if it is out of his control. But his evasive replies shed little light - he really didn't seem to know what to say.

The rest, you know.

Conclusion

Max Mosley has given his reasons for not allowing a chicane to be built, and some of them are very valid. In normal circumstances, a sport has to stick to its rules. However, the balance of opinion, to use the sort of phrase that Max often employs himself, is that the reasons in favour of a chicane were far more pressing.

Chief among his objections is that he didn't want to do anything to inconvenience the Bridgestone teams. But he says the whole business was nothing to do with Ferrari, and in turn Jean Todt says that it's the FIA's job to sort these things out, and nothing to do with him. Which of course is quite true, in theory.

After the race I asked Todt if he had spoken to Max over the weekend.

"I spoke with him, yes. But I wasn't the only one, I think everybody spoke with him."

So did Max want to know what he thought of the chicane?

"You know, I mean, Max has a very strong personality, and he has his people with whom he discusses, he has the director of the race, he has the clerk of the course, he has the stewards. I mean, to the question did I speak to him, I spoke with, yes."

But, I insisted, did Max ask if Ferrari would be happy with the chicane?

"No... He never asked me if we would be happy because he never thought that it was a possibility."

Fair enough, and you can't blame the guy for throwing up his hands and saying, it's not my problem.

But let's suspend reality and suppose that, early on Sunday morning, Todt had said something like the following to Max: 'I really don't want to do this, but the USA is our biggest market, Philip Morris is American, Shell are huge here. And Bridgestone/Firestone has had a lot of grief in the States over the past few years. The tifosi are not going to like this either. Remember Austria? I can see all this landing on my head, and Luca di Montezemolo is going to go ballistic if we get the blame. We just can't be seen to screw F1 up. So let's give them the chicane. I think we can beat them anyway."

If such generosity sounds far-fetched, what if he was able to add the following rider: "They've said they're going to give us all the points. How can we sort that out?"

If Todt had made such a suggestion, would Max Mosley really have found it so necessary to stick to his guns?

I suspect that Sunday was clouded by confusion over what was really on offer, and by whom. As noted, in his 3:30pm press briefing on Saturday, Ron Dennis was talking about putting the six Bridgestone cars at the front in return for use of the Barcelona tyres. Not much of a deal, really.

But by the next morning, with the clock ticking, the stakes had been raised so much that there was talk of the Michelin teams racing for no points. But did the message get through? Absolutely not, I can confirm. I asked Todt after the race, and he confirmed that he had never heard that particular version.

"Bernie came this morning to see me with different proposals, including a chicane, but again it's a matter of the FIA, it's not a matter of the commercial rights holder. And I said for me, it's up to the FIA to decide.

"I heard that the teams were prepared to offer the Bridgestone teams to start in front, but I mean it's completely nonsense. We did qualifying yesterday for the starting order."

Crucially, Todt confirmed that no other team principals had approached him or made any offers. Everything was thus channelled through Bernie.

This then begs the question, what did Bernie Ecclestone really say to Jean Todt in their six minute chat that began at 10:37am? Did he fully convey what the teams were offering? If not then, how much (if any) contact did the pair have about other potential compromises as the day went on?

On Sunday afternoon I was convinced that Bernie Ecclestone was as helpless as the rest of us in all this, that he had to a degree been publicly humiliated, and as someone said, made to look like an Emperor with no clothes. This time, it was the rest of the teams and Bernie, versus Max and Ferrari. Surely, I thought, the relationship between Mosley and Ecclestone was now irretrievably out of balance.

I'm still inclined to that view, but was it really the case? Let's take a conspiracy theorist's view and just suppose that Bernie was, as so often in the past, playing the long game. The Indy situation just happened to break in the middle of a heated political battle, and while he appeared to be pushing one cause, perhaps in the background he was pursuing quite different ends. Just a theory, but it makes you think, doesn't it?

[toad]

It seems Michelin is raising the bar...

Edouard Michelin, the man in charge of the giant Michelin tyre company, has responded to a communication last week from Max Mosley, which apparently questioned Michelin's safety record in Formula 1. A copy of Michelin's letter has fallen into hands and it makes interesting reading.

"I feel necessary to let you know how discontented I was of both the nature of your contentions - which are based on mere allegations - and the suspicious and inappropriate tone employed," Michelin wrote. "Michelin is very disappointed about the way the United States Grand Prix turned out. However, safety is and has always been the first priority for Michelin; it will never change its stance on this principle, whether for tyres for competition or for any other purpose. It is Michelin's reputation for excellence, its refusal to compromise on quality or thoroughness that have made Michelin the leading manufacturer of tyres in the world."

Michelin went on to question Mosley publishing correspondence.

"Your telefax addresses sensitive issues and raises the importance of confidentiality in addressing these matters," Michelin wrote. "It was brought to my attention that the 21 June 2005 correspondence was circulated widely in the press worldwide and on the Internet. Such disclosure, which contains erroneous allegations, may have damaging consequences on Michelin's reputation.

"Over the last days, you have repeatedly blamed us in the press, directly or indirectly. Will you at least recognize publicly that we have taken a courageous, honest and transparent stance for the safety of the pilots? I hope you will be fair enough to acknowledge that Michelin, with its seven partner teams, Indianapolis Motor Speedway, Formula One Management and two other teams, did the maximum to preserve a true and safe race by proposing a very serious and pragmatic alternative. This is all the opposite of a boycott!"

Michelin concluded by saying that "contrary to what is alluded in your publicized telefax, there is no reason to worry about the fundamental reliability of Michelin. I can confirm that Michelin will be present with safe and competitive tyres at the forthcoming Grand Prix races".

[Kiwiracing]

Leigh - thanks for this a most interesting read, I'd normally skim over this much copy but was compelled to read it.

Can I add this from planet-f1.com today

Michelin offer US fans their money back
Tuesday June 28 2005
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French tyre company Michelin has offered to refund the 120,000 spectators who bought tickets for the US Grand Prix two weeks ago.

The tyre company made the offer on the eve of an FIA disciplinary meetingin Paris which will hear why the seven Michelin-shod teams refused to race over safety concerns.

All seven teams face charges of bringing the sport into disrepute and could face a range of penalties including suspended bans, fines or even loss of Championship points.

A Michelin statement read: "Michelin deeply regrets that the public was deprived of an exciting race and therefore wishes to be the first, among the different groups involved in the race, to make a strong gesture towards the spectators."

The company have also offered to buy 20,000 tickets for the 2006 US Grand Prix to be given to this year's fans.

Cheers
Kiwiracing

[Andrew]

Leigh, thankyou for posting that.
I am profoundly interested in the outcomes of this issue. It has added to my knowledge on the subject, and poses some interesting questions.
I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.

[brchi17]

I wonder what will happen in France this weekend as there is talk that if the 7 Michelin teams are given more than a slap on the wrists (for not racing in America) by the FIA, that they may not run the French GP at Magny-Cours.

There is also talk that if the 7 do not run, that there will be a rebel race at Paul Ricard, with nine of the team running, so the French fans do not miss out (i.e. without Ferrari) ???

Also it was interesting to read in today’s AA about Stoddart's comments on the whole incident and who he believes are the main protagonists in the whole deal (Jean Todt and Max Mosley)

cheers. :)

[jager]

From ITV-F1 :

Indianapolis-based lawyer William Bock has filed the largest class-action lawsuit on behalf of short-changed fans.

Bock said the FIA’s response was unsatisfactory and would not stop legal action against Michelin, Formula 1 and IMS.

“It’s not enough to point a finger at Michelin and just say, ‘Fix it,’� Bock said in a statement. “The supposed guardians of the sport owe a duty to the fans to be part of the solution.
“Apparently, the FIA and Formula 1 hope that the furore over the [US GP] debacle will blow over if they ignore it for three months.�

Michelin has already offered to refund race day ticket-holders and purchase 20,000 tickets for the 2006 race to be given to spectators present at this year’s event, at an estimated cost to the French company of $10 million (£5.5 million). But FIA president Max Mosley has called on Michelin to go further and indemnify all parties vulnerable to legal action.

“Michelin caused the problem 100 percent – they should pay for the consequences of what they did,� said Mosley. “If they come out of this £30 million down they will be doing well.�