How many 1:43 Brock Porsche’s ?

[jager]

Since the 1:18 Brock Porsche is a hot topic for discussion I thought it was a good time to bring up an issue in regard to the 1:43 example that’s confused me for a while.

The 1:43 version of the Brock Porsche was supposedly one of 3,000 pieces according to the certificate (as are all the releases in the Biante Legends Series). My belief is that the number actually released was substantially less and could actually have been as little as half what is stated on the certificate.

Prior to the accident last year, I preordered a significant number of the 1:43 model for sale to overseas collectors from many different retailers acros Australia who were happy to sell multiples of a model they thought they might get stuck with. Having had many examples of this model pass through my hands, I realized that at no time had I seen a car with a certificate number over #1500. This was also confirmed from watching eBay auctions, where again I haven't seen any car being offered with a certificate number over #1500.

Thinking about it logically, the 1:18 version was limited to only 2,500 pieces due to perceived poor demand and low preorders from the retailers. Generally speaking 1:18 models dominate Australian sales and where Biante and Classics have produced the same car in 1:18 and 1:43 the larger scale has been produced in volumes 2 – 3 times that of the smaller scale. So why would Biante produce 3,000 pieces of the 1:43 if they only produced 2,500 pieces of the 1:18 in a market where 1:18 dominates ?

In conclusion, have there been any more than 1,500 pieces of the 1:43 Brock Porsche released (does anyone have a certificate number over 1,500 ?). It certainly appears to me that the claimed release of 3,000 models on the certificate was exaggerated and I’m still to be convinced that 3,000 pieces were actually released.

[ferrari fan]

Jager, what is the real purpose of your Question?
It states 3000 examples are made, Why would they overstate this?
Mine is 083

[james]

No mine is number 920

[MarkHM]

Ah hah, another conspiracy theory! Watching this discussion closely.

[luckystudebaker]

If in doubt, email Biante and ask.

[duckdodgers]

Jager are you suggesting that someone is sitting on 1500 of the 1:43 models?

Jager , Are you a dealer then?

[jager]

Jager, what is the real purpose of your Question?


If there are only 1,500 pieces and not 3,000 it significantly changes the rarity of this model both as a Brock collectable and relative to other Minichamps models. It also significantly reduces the number of collectors who will ever have a complete "Biante Racing Legends" collection.

It states 3000 examples are made, Why would they overstate this?

An excellent question that I hoping will be answered. My theory is that Biante were caught between a rock and a hard place, having publicly stated that all Biante Legends Models would be 1 or 3,000 pieces (which btw I thought was a stupid idea in the first place) and retail orders for this model of only half of that. The solution therefore was to produce a lot less than 3,000 pieces but just not tell anybody, figuring nobody would work it out.

If in doubt, email Biante and ask.

I think this is a question to be brought out into the open to be discussed openly by anyone who purchased this model, so I thought the forum was more appropriate.

Jager are you suggesting that someone is sitting on 1500 of the 1:43 models?

Jager , Are you a dealer then?

No and No. I don't believe someone is sitting on 1500 of the models (unless Biante are which I don't believe is the case as they have stated the model is sold out). I'm suggesting that only 1500 were made in the first instance and that the 3,000 pieces on the certificate could be fictional. But I could be wrong.

[zeitgeist]

Jager, what is the real purpose of your Question?


Because this is a discussion board and what better place to see if a theory about an observed anomaly has any merit.

Feel free to correct me, but Biante's original Walky release was only 10,000, even though the CoAs stated 12,000. Yes, they finished the run later, but this would mean Jager's theory about the 1/43 Porsche would not be the first time this has happened.

BC

[05shan]

Because this is a discussion board and what better place to see if a theory about an observed anomaly has any merit.

Feel free to correct me, but Biante's original Walky release was only 10,000, even though the CoAs stated 12,000. Yes, they finished the run later, but this would mean Jager's theory about the 1/43 Porsche would not be the first time this has happened.

BC
Makes you wonder if they have done this to any other releases. If this conspiracy is true, then why state 3000, then release 1500:confused: , If it is true that is.
In theory that would make them more collectable:confused:

[215i]

Mines under 1500

[Dingo]

If in doubt, email Biante and ask.
They wouldn't tell you, Jager, or anyone else if they've short supplied the 1:43 Brock Porsche - or any other car. That would be highly sensitive information that could be open to audit if anyone outside the company found out about it...

[rayman]

Under 1500 here too

[zeitgeist]

For the record, I am not accusing Biante of doing anything untoward. If one is going to err on a release count, at least err on the side producing too few.

If his theory were true, would public knowledge of it change the car's perceived availability? There are always few on eBay and, while they sell for over retail, it's not like you have to sell a leg to buy one.

BC

[athol]

I very much doub't it but stranger things have happened. Mine is 602.


Athol.

[Oh Five]

For your info Jager, I have 2 bought from different area's one in the 700's the other in the 900's

[Nick Short]

1274 for mine.

[Brock 05]

0345 for me, 0534 would have been nice.

[AmonFan]

I have my DOB 0969 ;)

[XU-123]

814 and 815 here

[toecutter]

I have had a total of seven 956's bought at all different times thoroughout Australia and all have been under 1500.

[biante11500]

its starting to smell fishy here......

[GT overload]

Well I'll be dammed mine is in the 1300's what is going on here?

[younglion]

maybe 1500 were for australia and the other 1500 were for the rest of the world seeing as its a lemans car and not a aussie v8 car or race in OZ

[Nick Short]

Or half released now, half later, after the 1:18 was released and had generated some interest in these "obscure" cars. Could have been the plan anyway, irrespective of Brock's death.

[streettuner]

705 for me

[inter]

intresting subject?

It,s a wonder Biante still keep this forum going?;)

[GTR XU-1]

intresting subject?

It,s a wonder Biante still keep this forum going?;)

Probably havnt read it yet, I guess Nathan will respond shortly.

[Dingo]

Probably havnt read it yet, I guess Nathan will respond shortly.
Or not...

[Oh Five]

:gossip: :uhoh2:

[singer]

Well, Ive got mine 126:D plus an earlier Vitesse version signed by the man himself :cool:

[Allthingsmall]

Mine's No.2354......not:D , it's in the 200's

[whitlam]

Mine's No.2354......not:D , it's in the 200's

cheeky b*rstard ;)

[Allthingsmall]

:joker: sorry, couldn't resist!

[wayno]

Must admit I think the theory about the higher numbers being for o/s release would be the one I would give credit to, knowing the popularity of the Minichamps Porsches.

[Dingo]

Must admit I think the theory about the higher numbers being for o/s release would be the one I would give credit to, knowing the popularity of the Minichamps Porsches.
Then why haven't I seen one for sale on eBay overseas yet?...

[Mark Wicks]

# 0025 for mine.

[Leigh]

Then why haven't I seen one for sale on eBay overseas yet?...
Well, it takes 12-18 months for Minichamps to get stock to Biante...maybe the reverse is also true:p

[jager]

17 hours and no one has answered the question in my post.


Hey Nathan - its been more than 17 hours (actually its been 3 days) !

Is someone from Biante going to answer the question - have you actually released 3,000 pieces of the 1:43 Brock Porsche because the evidence suggests otherwise ?

[Nick Short]

If there are 1500 remaining to go on the market, releasing them would be like throwing a steak into a piranha pool! The models have to be somewhere, surely? Like the Walkinshaws.

[singer]

There are 3000 model in total.

I would expect that most of these would've stayed within Australia

[Dingo]

If there are 1500 remaining to go on the market, releasing them would be like throwing a steak into a piranha pool! The models have to be somewhere, surely? Like the Walkinshaws.
On the bottom of the Pacific perhaps? Not unknown for a container of products to be washed off a ship and onto a beach somewhere...

[zeitgeist]

The unfortunate result of an unannounced 'staggered' release (if that is what we have here) is that it temporarily elevates the model's perceived rarity, directly affecting the collector.

A lot of people paid big for the Walkys, assuming that they would never, ever have the chance to walk into a stockist and buy it for RRP. A little information would've effectively killed the interim speculative market for this car.

Most of us out here consider ourselves to be knowledgeable collectors, but decisions like this are beyond even the best informed.

BC

[MarkHM]

On the bottom of the Pacific perhaps? Not unknown for a container of products to be washed off a ship and onto a beach somewhere...

speaking of which...a guy was on the news tonight who'd been scavenging on a beach in England...he justified it by saying it was cleaning upo the beach. His mate picked up a 15000 pound BMW bike.

[05shan]

A lot of people paid big for the Walkys, assuming that they would never, ever have the chance to walk into a stockist and buy it for RRP. A little information would've effectively killed the interim speculative market for this car.

I'm sure these cars were still available weeks later on the Biante site as that is where i bought mine.:confused:

[05shan]

speaking of which...a guy was on the news tonight who'd been scavenging on a beach in England...he justified it by saying it was cleaning upo the beach. His mate picked up a 15000 pound BMW bike.
Saw that!!! What a find:D
Wifey was drooling over the barrells of wine:rolleyes2:

[MarkHM]

Bloody Poms...they'll pinch anything that isn't tied down. Mind you so will South Africans. At my brothers wedding'the guests pinched all the crockery and cutlery! Not sure if it was tradition but the hire company sure got mad.

[VXfan]

Bloody Poms...they'll pinch anything that isn't tied down.
Ahem! Beg ur pardon?:annoyed:

[MarkHM]

Sorry Tony, no offense intended.

[VXfan]

OK,I let u stew for half an hour.................no offence taken:p

[MarkHM]

Could have been the ruin of a good friendship

[biante1948]

According to the Brisy newspaper article it was all legal.

[biante1948]

Bloody Poms...they'll pinch anything that isn't tied down.

According to Brissy newspaper :Apparently it was completely legal.

Police at the beach gave them the go ahead and everyone started searching thru everything. There were cars, tractors, carparts, wine barrels, leather jackets, camcorders, BMW Motorbikes galore.

Under the Merchant Shipping Act people are legally able to salvage goods washed up on the beach, so long as they notify the official Receiver of the Wreck.

The registered goods can then be reclaimed by the owners, ususally the insurance campny, who must give a reward to the salvages for their efforts in retreiving the goods.

However, few bothered to fill out the forms, disappearing before the police could issue the paperwork.

[rusky26]

According to Brissy newspaper :Apparently it was completely legal.

Police at the beach gave them the go ahead and everyone started searching thru everything. There were cars, tractors, carparts, wine barrels, leather jackets, camcorders, BMW Motorbikes galore.

Under the Merchant Shipping Act people are legally able to salvage goods washed up on the beach, so long as they notify the official Receiver of the Wreck.

The registered goods can then be reclaimed by the owners, ususally the insurance campny, who must give a reward to the salvages for their efforts in retreiving the goods.

However, few bothered to fill out the forms, disappearing before the police could issue the paperwork.

therefore, if they have taken gear before the police have issued the paperwork, it should classed as stealing, going by what you have said.
the same as if you find some jewellery for eg, if you just pocket it, it is classed as theft. if you hand it police, wait the neccessary time etc, if its not claimed, then you can keep it.

[biante1948]

Yes , I suppose you are right. I thought about that after I posted the reply and had run out of time to edit.

I'd reckon that the owner ( now the insurance company ) would try and track down the BMW's and the other expensive stuff if there is paper work to say who had it, couldn't imagine them just write it ALL off. Insurance companies are always trying to find anyway out of paying up on a claim, this lost is reported at $2.5 million dollars, just for the containers lost and contents.

[Nick Short]

Interviews with the police chief in the UK press showed that they didn't "give the go-ahead" at all; they felt that if they tried to stop them there would have been a riot (it's only a rural police service, with few officers). The police chief didn't even order the forms to be handed out until 2 days after the looting started, and made no attempt to record IDs of anyone. Until the maritime laws changed recently it was apparently legal to take anything washed up below the high tide line (jetsam) or floating out at sea (flotsam). A day after the news hit the papers the local looters were joined by every Tom, Dick and Harry from all over Britain, loading up their vans, and once all the useful stuff had gone the villagers nearby discovered that sheds were being broken into and tools and equipment stolen, charity boxes taken, anything that wasn't nailed down was gone.

Back to the Porsche, I saw another with #987, but the elusive 1500+ is still to be found.

[hobby]

0158


.

[Maximus]

I have number 382.

[Troy_H]

cant see the thory being proved wrong yet, Ill have to check the number of mine.

Wonder how many have gone os?

[inter]

thanks to some helpfull info from Jager

I have averages on these models ( combine my info with his)

I have recorded 207 sales

at an average of $145

to international sales ( ave $164)

to australian sales Ave $129

last 20 sales $131
last 50 Sales $136

[biante11500]

this will make 60 post on this topic and we still haven't heard what happend to the other 1500???
they will probably end up like all those moffat mustangs that were sold out and costed 300.00 bucks 4 years ago?? but yet you see the same ebay sellers selling them every week for the past year and half for 100.00 to 150.00 aud now trying to get rid of them. wich is still high for a 45.00 usd welly mustang mold.

[Brock 05]

I missed out on the 1/43 originally as I don't collect them at all (only 1/18) I collect Porsche models also & as it's a Brock I decided it would be my first & only 1/43. (other than the original Brock classic's 1/43 from years ago) I bought one at Phillip Island for $90.00 so by the sounds of it I didn't pay to much. For me the Brock/Porsche in 1/18 would be my favourite in my whole collection of any model/make etc.

PS, Inter you can add that to your figures if you want.

[BILLFORD1]

Getting back to 'the numbers', I have #58....But I tend to get my orders on the website in within a couple of minutes of release & more often than not, get pretty low numbers no matter if 1/18 or 1/43.......

[Donny05]

I think mine is #1428. I checked it earlier today now I can't remember but definetely in the 1400's.

[Martin Thomas]

Got back today and checked mine. 132 of 3000. Supplied by a dealer. The best damn dealer who just informed me I do have a 1:18 version. Yay.:D

[jager]

This one on eBay is certificate #1451 which is one of the highest I've seen.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/PORSCHE-956-TEAM-AUSTRALIA-LE-MANS-1984-PETER-BROCK_W0QQitemZ130074002233QQihZ003QQcategoryZ1118 75QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

There is also another on eBay that is #1429, but there is still no evidence of anything above #1500 and no comment from Biante. Hmmmmmmm ?

PS : Makes you wonder if there really are 2,500 pieces of the 1:18 model or is that just a ficticious number as well. Perhaps there are only 1,200 of those which explains why they are so hard to get.

[luckystudebaker]

[quote= The best damn dealer who just informed me I do have a 1:18 version. Yay.:D[/quote]

Phew! Another happy customer :D

[HDTHSVHRT]

Mine must be one of the highest numbers 1474!

[Nick Short]

Perhaps the planned run of 3000 was cut after the certificates were printed, due to perceived lack of interest? I have no doubt that it's not some sinister conspiracy, but it is potentially embarrassing and throws doubt on the numbered certificate thing.

[Martin Thomas]

Perhaps the planned run of 3000 was cut after the certificates were printed, due to perceived lack of interest? I have no doubt that it's not some sinister conspiracy, but it is potentially embarrassing and throws doubt on the numbered certificate thing.

I can't imagine what Biante would have to gain from this. I wonder if the other half were contracted to minichamps to be distributed to the rest of the world.

[jager]

Perhaps the planned run of 3000 was cut after the certificates were printed, due to perceived lack of interest? I have no doubt that it's not some sinister conspiracy, but it is potentially embarrassing and throws doubt on the numbered certificate thing.

It's a little more than embarassing and falls under "Misleading Conduct" of Section 53 of the Trade Practices Act. Still, its only a potential $200,000 fine for the company and $40,000 fine for individuals.

[Tumbo]

actually Jager I would strongly disagree with you; considering the cert says 3000 produced provided no more than this are made it doesn't matter when, where, why or how they are done there is nothing misleading or deceptive. You would need to find an equivocal statement that the run was of 3000 exactly that this was to be released as a single batch; there was to be no cars sent to a particular market outside Australia, that there was no potential for only a certain number of cars to be made preliminary to a second release. Further if something happened to part of the consignment and was outside of Biante's control then a s53 action under the TPA would fail

[luckystudebaker]

It's a little more than embarassing and falls under "Misleading Conduct" of Section 53 of the Trade Practices Act. Still, its only a potential $200,000 fine for the company and $40,000 fine for individuals.

Surely a company who make more than the said amount would get a fine, but not a lesser amount IF that was the case

[jager]

I can't imagine what Biante would have to gain from this. I wonder if the other half were contracted to minichamps to be distributed to the rest of the world.

Minichamps have published a list of their 2007 releases for the Nurnburg Toy Fair but there is no mention on any Brock Porsches (in either scale) to be released by them this year :

www.minichamps.de/images/...e20071.pdf

[Dingo]

Minichamps have published a list of their 2007 releases for the Nurnburg Toy Fair but there is no mention on any Brock Porsches (in either scale) to be released by them this year :

www.minichamps.de/images/...e20071.pdf (http://www.minichamps.de/images/...e20071.pdf)
Bad link - try here (http://www.minichamps.de/images/upload/Spielwaren messe/2007/Neuheitenliste20071.pdf) :)

[wayno]

Bad link - try here (http://www.minichamps.de/images/upload/Spielwaren messe/2007/Neuheitenliste20071.pdf) :)

How do you work out what is in which scale? :confused:

[KiwiRallyFan]

I think the ones starting 100 are 1/18 and the ones starting 430 are 1/43.

(You can look on the Biante website to see what the model numbers are)

[zeitgeist]

Surely a company who make more than the said amount would get a fine, but not a lesser amount IF that was the case

Legally, I cannot see how there is a problem.

The main victim is Biante's veracity regarding release numbers. The continued revelation of CoAs under 1500 is interesting and Biante's continued silence on the issue only fuels the speculative fires.

It is within reason to surmise that Biante, upon finding a favourable market for the initial 1500, will now place an order for the remaining 1500.

While such a practice is legally permissible, it is a GREAT disservice to the collecting community. The Walkinshaw was proof of that. Quite a length of time elapsed before Biante announced that another 2000 had yet to be made. During that time, a lot of collectors paid an inflated market price.

Biante are quick to squash lame-brained, unfounded, silly rumours. Interestingly, this thread continues unquestioned.

BC

[biante11500]

Legally, I cannot see how there is a problem.

The main victim is Biante's veracity regarding release numbers. The continued revelation of CoAs under 1500 is interesting and Biante's continued silence on the issue only fuels the speculative fires.

It is within reason to surmise that Biante, upon finding a favourable market for the initial 1500, will now place an order for the remaining 1500.

While such a practice is legally permissible, it is a GREAT disservice to the collecting community. The Walkinshaw was proof of that. Quite a length of time elapsed before Biante announced that another 2000 had yet to be made. During that time, a lot of collectors paid an inflated market price.

Biante are quick to squash lame-brained, unfounded, silly rumours. Interestingly, this thread continues unquestioned.

BC

very well stated young man, i agree with your post 100% as i was thinking along the same line's. as long as this thread has been on the front page with no awnser i think you may have hit the nail on the head so to say.

[wayno]

I think the ones starting 100 are 1/18 and the ones starting 430 are 1/43.

(You can look on the Biante website to see what the model numbers are)

Yep. That's it.
I'm still in trouble though! :o

[singer]

Biante stated there are 3000 models and there has been nothing said or done to make me think otherwise.:)

As Biante have claimed before, there are people in the world with nothing better to do than spread scurrilous rumors. :(

Maybe it is to increase the value of the models they hold:confused:

[Dingo]

Biante stated there are 3000 models and there has been nothing said or done to make me think otherwise.:)

As Biante have claimed before, there are people in the world with nothing better to do than spread scurrilous rumors. :(

Maybe it is to increase the value of the models they hold:confused:
Doubtful. If Biante are going to sell the remaining 1500, they would have to do so at the original RRP. There would be blood in the streets if the remaining 1500 turned up at twice the RRP direct from Perth.

FWIW, I am beginning to believe that there's either another 1500 on a boat from China, or a container with 1500 sitting on the bottom of the Pacific...

[ferrari fan]

Yep. That's it.
I'm still in trouble though! :o

No you are covered as there is one here with your name on it, and you can get it whenever you want it, or I bring it with me to Bathurst.

[BUCKO]

mine is 842

[Damage]

What? Did I miss something?

[Todd77]

Just checked mine and it is #488.

Similar topic, I once heard a rumour regarding the walkinshaw that out of the original 12000 produced only 6000 saw the light of day. The other 6000 were turned into the 1990 Bathurst winner hence they were limited to 6000. Now I don't know if this is true or not so maybe someone out there can find out.

[gab73]

A COA higher than 1500 has never surfaced for the Brock 1/43, hence the speculation, COA throughout the 12000 Walkinshaws have surfaced putting that rumour to bed.

[Road Runner 72]

Just checked mine and it is #488.

Similar topic, I once heard a rumour regarding the walkinshaw that out of the original 12000 produced only 6000 saw the light of day. The other 6000 were turned into the 1990 Bathurst winner hence they were limited to 6000. Now I don't know if this is true or not so maybe someone out there can find out.

LOL, Todd if you search the walkinshaw topic, you will find that there were two releases of the same car ;)

[Weststorm]

Ok this thread has me interested, mine is # 0273.