1984 Group C Bathurst VK

[AZNOMA]

Over on the bertie street forum, they reckon they have identified which is the real "05" VK Big Banger!!!

[wayno]

Ok. What did they come up with?

[AZNOMA]

05 is, as always proposed by the majority, in Bathurst.

[pitcrew]

:curtain:

[AmonFan]

Was interesting that they pointed out some things that i posted on here many, many months ago ;)

[malscar]

Also a certain youtube you posted today as well

[AmonFan]

Also a certain youtube you posted today as well

Nah that was sent to me by a mate and its also on the bertiestreet forum.....

[david5]

Our timing was pretty good Laz.;)

[HDT337]

Had my suspicions, but like we have said all along, a Cams log book would probably set it straight.

HDT337

[mick78]

My guess is Brocky must have raced both cars at some stage in their short racing life, but it seems with the latest investigations that the 84 Bathurst 05VK is the one in the Bathurst Museum. Having said that I suppose Mr Champion may yet pull a rabbit out of his hat.

[GRPIII]

spent alot of time looking at that car on the weekend. its the real 05.
theres a few other tell tale signs thats the car in the museum is the real deal, i agree with the log books, that other whole issue, hdts pr man reckons the books mean jack ****. which of course is incorrect.
the non damaged quarter is the major proof required to end the myth.
bertiestreet.com has all the info required.

[HDT337]

spent alot of time looking at that car on the weekend. its the real 05.
theres a few other tell tale signs thats the car in the museum is the real deal, i agree with the log books, that other whole issue, hdts pr man reckons the books mean jack ****. which of course is incorrect.
the non damaged quarter is the major proof required to end the myth.
bertiestreet.com has all the info required.

Bertiestreet's findings were a bloody good read, quite interesting findings, we were up there in 2007 looking at the same markings on the car and the picture on the wall.

Never really thought of the rear left quarter on the 25 car, great find.

HDT337

[david5]

Im not a Peter Champion fan, but in his defence he may not know which car he has. The point at which the identity of the car was switched occured when HDT got the car back from WA to sell to Clelands. The car has landed in the UK painted as 05(not that accurately either btw) & then undergone a few different versions over there. Willy Van Wersche(sp) bought the car in the UK & brought it back to Aust. Its then been sold to PC & restored by the chap who does his cars. The restorer may have not even thought anything of the rear qtr damage as he may have thought it occurred during its UK racing career. Afterall he would have researched mainly 05 stuff as thats what he was told he was doing & many of us have overlooked the rear qtr damage to 25.

So it was a bit of carsales skulldugery back then that created a bit of fancy footwork to explain what "happened" when two 05s came to be.

05 would have been a much more saleable item to overseas buyers, but they had already given it away, but what the heck, theyll never know, we need some cash for these Group A thingies;)

[AmonFan]

And we heard it first in Auto Action, March 1985 ;)

[mick78]

Im not a Peter Champion fan, but in his defence he may not know which car he has. The point at which the identity of the car was switched occured when HDT got the car back from WA to sell to Clelands. The car has landed in the UK painted as 05(not that accurately either btw) & then undergone a few different versions over there. Willy Van Wersche(sp) bought the car in the UK & brought it back to Aust. Its then been sold to PC & restored by the chap who does his cars. The restorer may have not even thought anything of the rear qtr damage as he may have thought it occurred during its UK racing career. Afterall he would have researched mainly 05 stuff as thats what he was told he was doing & many of us have overlooked the rear qtr damage to 25.

So it was a bit of carsales skulldugery back then that created a bit of fancy footwork to explain what "happened" when two 05s came to be.

05 would have been a much more saleable item to overseas buyers, but they had already given it away, but what the heck, theyll never know, we need some cash for these Group A thingies;)

Agreed David,

But Mr Brock himself clouded the issue some years ago with a letter in AMC in response to the very simple question, "both cars have 05 on their side, which one is the real deal?" Read his letter and try to read between the lines and you still get confused

[kts350]

Bertiestreet's findings were a bloody good read, quite interesting findings, we were up there in 2007 looking at the same markings on the car and the picture on the wall.
Never really thought of the rear left quarter on the 25 car, great find.
HDT337
My mate and I did the same thing last time we were at Bathurst my mate is a bigger Brock freak then me was at Bathurst in 84, we spent probably an hour or more looking over the car comparing it to the photo's.. This one my other hobby of Star Wars costuming came in handy as it's taught me how to really look for the smallest difference in between real movie used items and replica's..

[david5]

Agreed David,

But Mr Brock himself clouded the issue some years ago with a letter in AMC in response to the very simple question, "both cars have 05 on their side, which one is the real deal?" Read his letter and try to read between the lines and you still get confused

No confusion mate, just PB trying to get out of the hole he found himself in 20 odd years after a used car fib caught up with him.

[GRPIII]

autoaction in 84, the number 52 etc all tell tales signs but people always doubted the real 05.
shouldnt now.
quite possilby PC wouldnt have known what car was what.
JVR may will have known about the damaged when the resto accured.
the think the real 25 needs to be displayed as it should be as it still has a huge part in australian motorsport history & repect should be given to harves & skip.

[spoonster05]

Does anyone know if 05 was removed from the museum during September 1988 as when I did work experience at Brock (by then doing the pre-delivery work on the Lada's) they had a VK in the race team workshop along with the M3's

If not that would mean that the Harvey car was in Australia in September 1988

[gab73]

Does anyone know if 05 was removed from the museum during September 1988 as when I did work experience at Brock (by then doing the pre-delivery work on the Lada's) they had a VK in the race team workshop along with the M3's

If not that would mean that the Harvey car was in Australia in September 1988
That car was at the Carlton Exhibition building on display in 88 along with the M3, A9X and Moffat/Harvey VL.

[AZNOMA]

Does anyone know if 05 was removed from the museum during September 1988 as when I did work experience at Brock (by then doing the pre-delivery work on the Lada's) they had a VK in the race team workshop along with the M3's

If not that would mean that the Harvey car was in Australia in September 1988

Was it a Group C VK (dayglo red / White/ Marlboro etc)?

[spoonster05]

Yep, had the right wheels, alloy roll cage, etc as well

[AmonFan]

From a model point of view, on the brochure for the #25 CC model there is a thankyou to the to the National Motor Racing Museum for access to create their 1:18 scale Big Banger model... So with the new old news it effectively means the CC 1:18 #25 VK was to my memory the lowest ever 1:18 scale model build of a Brock Bathurst Winner ;)

[david5]

Ive been reading on the bertie street site with interest some posts that attribute the "confusion" over the cars IDs to the gentleman who brought the car back to Aust. I dont know this person & Ive heard of some of his other exploits but there are shots of the car in the pits at a European racetrack painted as the 05 MHDT car. Does anyone know the date of that photo ? Is it an arrival or departure photo ?

If it was repainted in the UK to bring back you would wonder why you would bother ?

If the car landed in the UK as 05, then the confusion could only have started at one place.

[AmonFan]

Ive been reading on the bertie street site with interest some posts that attribute the "confusion" over the cars IDs to the gentleman who brought the car back to Aust. I dont know this person & Ive heard of some of his other exploits but there are shots of the car in the pits at a European racetrack painted as the 05 MHDT car. Does anyone know the date of that photo ? Is it an arrival or departure photo ?

If it was repainted in the UK to bring back you would wonder why you would bother ?

If the car landed in the UK as 05, then the confusion could only have started at one place.

I'll pm you ;)

[racer69]

If the car landed in the UK as 05, then the confusion could only have started at one place.

It presumebly landed in the UK as #52, as raced by John Farrell in WA prior to it going

[SDK]

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu192/SDK2008/M attsOldBathurst012.jpg

[SDK]

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu192/SDK2008/M attsOldBathurst011.jpg

[SDK]

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu192/SDK2008/M attsOldBathurst013.jpg

[MarkHM]

Woohoo...this means more models!

[david5]

Its......alive

[MarkHM]

Alive and reasonably well. Just got back from US

[david5]

Been to the Deer John factory ? Did you bring us toys ?

[HDT-310]

This may have already been answered in the past, but I'll ask anyway......If the real '05' Banger is at the Bathurst Museum, why does it have the Harvey / Parsons door mirror and not the smaller type used by Brock (and still on the car now owned by Peter Champion). Seems a bit strange to change a mirror for something that isn't right.

[AmonFan]

This may have already been answered in the past, but I'll ask anyway......If the real '05' Banger is at the Bathurst Museum, why does it have the Harvey / Parsons door mirror and not the smaller type used by Brock (and still on the car now owned by Peter Champion). Seems a bit strange to change a mirror for something that isn't right.

It does'nt have the Harvey/Parsons door mirror ;).... The Harvey/Parsons then Farrell car had the VB/VC etc type mirror....

[HDT-310]

Ok..... you are right about the vb/vc mirror on the 25 car, but why does it (the museum car) not have the smaller 05 mirror. Can you now explain the mirror on the car pictured, which as i understand is from the museum.... Don't want to start anything, just want to be set straight.
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu192/SDK2008/M attsOldBathurst012.jpg

[HDT-310]

But thanks for pointing that out

[david5]

This may have already been answered in the past, but I'll ask anyway......If the real '05' Banger is at the Bathurst Museum, why does it have the Harvey / Parsons door mirror and not the smaller type used by Brock (and still on the car now owned by Peter Champion). Seems a bit strange to change a mirror for something that isn't right.


That small aero mirror was a favourite of Brocks & was used on more than one car.

[AmonFan]

Ok you are correct about the 25 car, so why does the museum car not have the right mirror on it.

Id assume Brock kept it......

[GRPIII]

the car in the museum is without a doubt the real 05

[Welby]

Too true.
Proven a number of times.

:D

[GRPIII]

but yet to be acknowledged

[david5]

PC will dig his heels in, won't do him any good though.

[SDK]

PC will dig his heels in, won't do him any good though.

Reckon it should be up to Bowden to clarify via Australian Muscle Car mag for us all.

Can someone please write him a letter seeking that & while you're at it, suggest to him that his Ph4 is a replica..

[AmonFan]

Reckon it should be up to Bowden to clarify via Australian Muscle Car mag for us all.

Can someone please write him a letter seeking that & while you're at it, suggest to him that his Ph4 is a replica..

I think you will find AMC will have nothing to do with it unless people write in ;)

[david5]

Reckon it should be up to Bowden to clarify via Australian Muscle Car mag for us all.

Can someone please write him a letter seeking that & while you're at it, suggest to him that his Ph4 is a replica..

Peter Champion owns the car I was refering to, not Mr Bowden.

[My Element]

the car in the museum is without a doubt the real 05

Which car did Brock write and sign "the real 05" in the boot? I recall it not being the car in the Bathurst Museum. Please explain why Brock would write this if it is not the real deal.
Just curious thats all.. As I don't know either

[vchdt]

Log on to bertiestreet.com and you can read the whole story.

There is about 70 pages worth of discussion, and a seperate dedicated thread with proof to why the car at the Bathurst museum is the real O5 big banger.

[AmonFan]

Which car did Brock write and sign "the real 05" in the boot? I recall it not being the car in the Bathurst Museum. Please explain why Brock would write this if it is not the real deal.
Just curious thats all.. As I don't know either

My Element, i guess as time goes by people forget which is which, a bit like when we have a few kids and we call them the wrong name... or am i the only one who does that, lol
History shows as reported in various race reports in 1985 that #25 went to WA for John Farrell where he raced it as #52.... Farrell had'nt raced for some 4-5 years his previous race numbers in the late 70s being #85 and #86....

[My Element]

come on guys, I'm after the short answer, lol

[AmonFan]

come on guys, I'm after the short answer, lol

LOL i thought mine was short :p

[Rob]

Going by the debate over the years, there is no short answer.
In the end does, it really matter which is the real one - other than to their owners??
We should be lucky that both survived and can be admired for the marvellous machines they were.

PB was adamant that Champions version is the real 05......so who knows......

[AmonFan]

Going by the debate over the years, there is no short answer.
In the end does, it really matter which is the real one - other than to their owners??
We should be lucky that both survived and can be admired for the marvellous machines they were.

PB was adamant that Champions version is the real 05......so who knows......

Ok so the Farrell car was #05 and they put the Harvey Windscreen banner on it, put the Harvey guards and bonnet on it and either changed the 1/4 panels or did a sign writing job to make it look like the Harvey car... Rather than put a VK mirror on it they also put the earlier model mirror on it like on Harves version.... As Farrell according to Brock wanted the Bathurst winner but obviosuly wanted it to look like the Harvey car ;)

[GRPIII]

come on guys, I'm after the short answer, lol

the car in the museum is 05, why? car 25 copped a heap of damage at bathurst, the car in the museum is orginal in everyway & has no damage.
cant get any shorter than that.
i know as i inspected 05.
as amonfan has stated you wanted the whole story
www.bertiestreet.com
good read & a great site.

[AZNOMA]

Going by the debate over the years, there is no short answer.
In the end does, it really matter which is the real one - other than to their owners??
We should be lucky that both survived and can be admired for the marvellous machines they were.

PB was adamant that Champions version is the real 05......so who knows......

PB lied to Champion! Simple as that. No idea why ... but he did.

I does matter which is which. It is called "correct" history.

[mick78]

PB lied to Champion! Simple as that. No idea why ... but he did.

I does matter which is which. It is called "correct" history.

To say he lied means you have to prove malicious intent. PB may have been simply mistaken. Also at some time over the few races they had both cars may have been raced by Brock as car 05. After Bathurst they may have swapped them for the races at Surfers and Calder in late 84. If you read PB's letter in AMC responding to the question of which car is which it is revealing but some issues PB speaks in a confusing manner.

My opinion is that the Bathurst museum 05 is the real 05. It is not good enough to say "both cars are great so what is the problem?" Both are great cars, but one is certainly much more original than the other and one car won Bathurst and the other came second. That is important.

The Bertie Street Forum stuff is great amateur research and the guys deserve some congratulations. I look forward to AMC doing a story on this mystery - they are very big on the provenance of old muscle cars so I am sure they will give this story due importance. Or did they simply rely on the late PB's possibly mistaken recollections?

[troym]

has anyone asked larry perkins or john harvey which is the real 05 ? perkins actually ran the workshop & organised the build process so you would think larry could answer this question

[SL/ENUT]

They wouldn't remember. It is 25 years ago.

[AZNOMA]

To say he lied means you have to prove malicious intent. PB may have been simply mistaken. Also at some time over the few races they had both cars may have been raced by Brock as car 05. After Bathurst they may have swapped them for the races at Surfers and Calder in late 84. If you read PB's letter in AMC responding to the question of which car is which it is revealing but some issues PB speaks in a confusing manner.

My opinion is that the Bathurst museum 05 is the real 05. It is not good enough to say "both cars are great so what is the problem?" Both are great cars, but one is certainly much more original than the other and one car won Bathurst and the other came second. That is important.

The Bertie Street Forum stuff is great amateur research and the guys deserve some congratulations. I look forward to AMC doing a story on this mystery - they are very big on the provenance of old muscle cars so I am sure they will give this story due importance. Or did they simply rely on the late PB's possibly mistaken recollections?

Amateur Research!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go suck an egg.

AMC rank 99th in the "research" stakes. A quicky is that it has been well known for the last 6 months that the Ling-Gowans Celica Sports Sedan (their current MIA) is back with Bruce Gowans and a multitude of people know this. Why not just do a (researched) story on the car????? Why dedicate MIA? Because they do no research! They needed a story that they knew the answer for!

AMC washed their hands of the 05/25 debate back in 2005 with a single letter from Brock. If you read the (whole) thread on bertie street, you will see where AMC were called to justify their unwillingness to persue the question about the cars. AMC are selective knowledge to make a magazine and don't do research. When Graham Howard (Historically Speaking) in Auto Action reportes the latest findings, it will become the true and correct facts.

I enjoy AMC, a good read and I love it when they get it right, frustrated when they get it wrong.

[AmonFan]

Hmmm a Monza, would that be Chev Monza ;)

[AZNOMA]

Hmmm a Monza, would that be Chev Monza ;)

Several.

[Damage]

To say he lied means you have to prove malicious intent.

Eh??? I'm not with you there...

Maybe it was a "white" lie to placate PC (thats if he was lying and not just mistaken as others have pointed out)

[AmonFan]

Several.

Former kaditcha peddler as well ;)

[AZNOMA]

Former kaditcha peddler as well ;)

enough, enough ...... ID'd!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Back to the subject.

Peter Champion was lied to.

[GRPIII]

To say he lied means you have to prove malicious intent. PB may have been simply mistaken. Also at some time over the few races they had both cars may have been raced by Brock as car 05. After Bathurst they may have swapped them for the races at Surfers and Calder in late 84.

if you read the researh changing the numbers was not done, that has already been proven.

[jd yort]

Everyone likes to think the heros and the legends of Australian motor racing are straighy one eighties. However Australian motor racing folklore is littered with countless stories of corruption and deceit.

Several.

Hope you are looking after them and we may see one or two back on the track.

[AZNOMA]

Everyone likes to think the heros and the legends of Australian motor racing are straighy one eighties. However Australian motor racing folklore is littered with countless stories of corruption and deceit.



Hope you are looking after them and we may see one or two back on the track.

Thats the aim!

[mick78]

Amateur Research!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go suck an egg.



Scotch Egg or a Cadbury's creme egg?

Read the sentence my good chap an you will see I was talking about the Bertie Street forum's "amatuer research" not AMC. My comments about looking forward to AMC's research contained a level of irony you did not appear to notice in you careful and thoughtful read of my post. Maybe I should have used an "irony" emoticon to give you a helping hand.

My sincere apologies...

[mick78]

if you read the researh changing the numbers was not done, that has already been proven.

All my initial point was can anyone prove that if it the real 05 is in Bathurst did Peter Brock get his wires crossed? After all both cars raced how may times after Bathurst 84? Surfers Paradise, the Calder 84 AGP meeting..any others? Perhaps they swapped numbers then. In effect both cars may have been 05 and raced by Brock, only one is the Bathurst winning VK.

Maybe Peter was mistaken I don't know. He didn't sell the VK the Mr Champion did he? Where are the log books? They should tell the story should'nt they.

I have long believed that the Bathurst museum VK is the real 05. But to point blank say that Mr Brock lied to Peter Champion is hardly fair. Peter cannot now defend himself. You would have to prove beyond any doubt that he was not mistaken and was being deliberatly deceptive. Can anyone do that? I know we have the letter he wrote in AMC in 2005, but maybe even he was mistaken about which car was which. Would you remember a conversation in detail from 1985?

[AmonFan]

Mick, it was'nt just a matter of swapping numbers.... Windscreen banners, different sized HDT logo's on each car, plus various other differences is the positioning of other signage.... Then the different mirrors etc...........

Id rather read Monza's research than AMC's any day :D

[malscar]

damage to the rear quarter from a racing incident.

[GRPIII]

All my initial point was can anyone prove that if it the real 05 is in Bathurst did Peter Brock get his wires crossed? After all both cars raced how may times after Bathurst 84? Surfers Paradise, the Calder 84 AGP meeting..any others? Perhaps they swapped numbers then. In effect both cars may have been 05 and raced by Brock, only one is the Bathurst winning VK.

Maybe Peter was mistaken I don't know. He didn't sell the VK the Mr Champion did he? Where are the log books? They should tell the story should'nt they.

I have long believed that the Bathurst museum VK is the real 05. But to point blank say that Mr Brock lied to Peter Champion is hardly fair. Peter cannot now defend himself. You would have to prove beyond any doubt that he was not mistaken and was being deliberatly deceptive. Can anyone do that? I know we have the letter he wrote in AMC in 2005, but maybe even he was mistaken about which car was which. Would you remember a conversation in detail from 1985?

never have i said PB was a lair, theres 3 parties who need to sort this out now. & it dont involve PB.

another question of mine is why havent we seen any pics of the car from when it was found in the sweeden till the finished resto?

again as amonfan has stated a number swap was not possible going on the provided evidence, no many differences to change a number.
john harvey has even given the thumbs up!

[Graeme]

I've heard that ex-HDT/ex-Perkins Engineering guru, Neil 'Part' Burns, would have some useful input on which '05' is the real '05' ... I guess we'll have to wait and see if the AMC journos catch up with him for a chat.

[AZNOMA]

I've heard that ex-HDT/ex-Perkins Engineering guru, Neil 'Part' Burns, would have some useful input on which '05' is the real '05' ... I guess we'll have to wait and see if the AMC journos catch up with him for a chat.

Part didn't want to talk about it in 2005. What is different now?

[AZNOMA]

Scotch Egg or a Cadbury's creme egg?

Read the sentence my good chap an you will see I was talking about the Bertie Street forum's "amatuer research" not AMC. My comments about looking forward to AMC's research contained a level of irony you did not appear to notice in you careful and thoughtful read of my post. Maybe I should have used an "irony" emoticon to give you a helping hand.

My sincere apologies...

Apology accepted.

If you read my post (old boy), AMC has the "amatuer (or popular) research".

So we both agree then, Good-O! Tally-Ho.

"their we were, 30,000 over Dresden, nothing on the clocks, crackers going off everywhere, tail shot to bits, dahm lucky we made it home!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[smokey_dj]

jolly good show it was me old son :p

[david5]

Apology accepted.

"their we were, 30,000 over Dresden, nothing on the clocks, crackers going off everywhere, tail shot to bits, dahm lucky we made it home!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

"Bigglesworth, I'm afraid Gingers bought the farm, blasted Hun"

[mick78]

Mick, it was'nt just a matter of swapping numbers.... Windscreen banners, different sized HDT logo's on each car, plus various other differences is the positioning of other signage.... Then the different mirrors etc...........

Id rather read Monza's research than AMC's any day :D

Agreed, and believe me I have have looked at all the pictures as well as taking lots of pics of 05 in the museum, but it would be nice if someone could confirm that 05 was 05 for the remainder of it's short working life, and that 25 was the same (could they have swapped them for the Surfers Race in Nov 84 for instance..). In their remaining races there may have been some trim and signage changes or even the windscreen banners. 05 that is in the museum is not presented as raced at Bathurst. It is presented as it finished it's final race in November 84 or whenever it was with some stickers placed on it again (such as the James Hardie sticker)

[mick78]

"Bigglesworth, I'm afraid Gingers bought the farm, blasted Hun"

Bigglesworth is a pedant. He hasn't spelt "there" properly......................

[AmonFan]

Agreed, and believe me I have have looked at all the pictures as well as taking lots of pics of 05 in the museum, but it would be nice if someone could confirm that 05 was 05 for the remainder of it's short working life, and that 25 was the same (could they have swapped them for the Surfers Race in Nov 84 for instance..). In their remaining races there may have been some trim and signage changes or even the windscreen banners. 05 that is in the museum is not presented as raced at Bathurst. It is presented as it finished it's final race in November 84 or whenever it was with some stickers placed on it again (such as the James Hardie sticker)

Mick there are pictures on the Bertiestreet forum of the cars at both Surfers and Calder.... Certainly the TAA on the right front of the Farrell car is in the same place as the Harvey car.... That part i can confirm ;) I can also confirm it has the smaller HDT logo's on the Bonnet and other differences between the 2.

[GRPIII]

the only changes of livery between events was the event sticker itself, yes the bathurst mueseum car has a james hardie 1000 decal on the side under the number on the door as its presented as the bathurst winner, not its last support race at calder.

its only appeared to wear 3 in its for events
castrol 500
james hardie 1000
surfers enduro no event signage visable.
calder support race, has small signage but cant make out wordings.

maybe some of you guys need to read up on all the finding, the cars never had a number swap as rumoured over the years. way to many variants on both cars to happen.
read it for yourself.
and why would they anyway?
brock won 3 from 3 going into the support race at calder, why would he want to drive car 25?

[GRPIII]

I've heard that ex-HDT/ex-Perkins Engineering guru, Neil 'Part' Burns, would have some useful input on which '05' is the real '05' ... I guess we'll have to wait and see if the AMC journos catch up with him for a chat.
aint gunna happen, seems various people have had there lips sealed by other people.

[AmonFan]

Just a bit of trivia, the stickers under the numbers of #05 and #25 at Calder AGP meet 1984 was Diners Club....

[HRT1]

very interesting read this thread. just read it from start to finish. i went to the bathurst museum last month and the car looked a lot closer to #05 bathurst winner than #25 but i have no idea which car is in which museum and i'm not gonna make a call either way. cant get into the other forum u guys are referring to though dunno why? would be great to have a good read of the whole situation

[AmonFan]

very interesting read this thread. just read it from start to finish. i went to the bathurst museum last month and the car looked a lot closer to #05 bathurst winner than #25 but i have no idea which car is in which museum and i'm not gonna make a call either way. cant get into the other forum u guys are referring to though dunno why? would be great to have a good read of the whole situation

Did you register? also you need to make 10 valid posts i think before you can read the #05/#25 thread.....

[HRT1]

tried to register....told me i had an invalid email address? which i re-typed to make sure it was ok and there were no mistakes. is there a block on hotmail email addresses?

[AmonFan]

tried to register....told me i had an invalid email address? which i re-typed to make sure it was ok and there were no mistakes. is there a block on hotmail email addresses?

That part i could'nt tell you... I know it took me a bit to register as i left something unticked.....

[HRT1]

hmmm tried a few times told me my email was invalid. had everything filled out coz i triple checked it. never mind

[vchdt]

tried to register....told me i had an invalid email address? which i re-typed to make sure it was ok and there were no mistakes. is there a block on hotmail email addresses?

Yeah mate, im quite sure they don't accept hotmail and gmail type email address accounts at bertiestreet

[ITGRIPS]

they don't accept hotmail, gmail etc. i'm not saying anyone on here is dodgey but it makes it easier to keep the crap off the site and there is alot less spamming etc because of it.

it is a really good read and if people are genuinely interested it's worth the effort to register

[david5]

Not just the Big banger stuff, lots of good motorsport history on there.

[david5]

Just some photos

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg30/david5_alb um/thsenator0001.jpg


http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg30/david5_alb um/brocksenator.jpg

025 had a hard life in england

[wazza002]

Your links do not open david mate :p:D

[david5]

try again wazz, fixed em

[wazza002]

try again wazz, fixed em

Thanks david you got them to work well done, See you can do new tricks Lol :p:D

[david5]

I see the 05/25 threads have been removed from the bertie st forum. Legal movements ? I hope not, I'd hate to see the truth over ruled by money.

[AmonFan]

I see the 05/25 threads have been removed from the bertie st forum. Legal movements ? I hope not, I'd hate to see the truth over ruled by money.

So you want a copy of my X files when i pass on ;)

[david5]

So you want a copy of my X files when i pass on ;)

Your getting very easy with your X files of late big fella. But yes please.

[GRPIII]

I see the 05/25 threads have been removed from the bertie st forum. Legal movements ? I hope not, I'd hate to see the truth over ruled by money.

truth over money?
maybe truth over friendship.
was removed due to some site ownership issues & a certain owner trying to mend a few bridges.

[david5]

truth over money?
maybe truth over friendship.
was removed due to some site ownership issues & a certain owner trying to mend a few bridges.

Still dissapointing to see it removed. The removal of the threads does nothing for the credibility of the content. My comment about truth over money was about PCs potetial to hire very expensive lawyers.

[Damage]

Still dissapointing to see it removed. The removal of the threads does nothing for the credibility of the content. My comment about truth over money was about PCs potetial to hire very expensive lawyers.

That happens, you represent yourself. Judges might not like it but a jury loves the underdog.

[HDT176]

Still dissapointing to see it removed. The removal of the threads does nothing for the credibility of the content. My comment about truth over money was about PCs potetial to hire very expensive lawyers.

PC is a gentleman, no solicitors or lawyers........
He gave us 100% access to his car at Top Gear in Sydney this year for example.
The "05" debate is still alive, and the next chapter is coming soon.
This time though "third parties" with other agenda's will not be involved, or have access to the findings.
Stay tuned.....

[PeekRPM]

Facts are the Brock car went to England and was raced in the touring Championship over there in the mid-eigthies and is being restored back in England as last raced by Brock..
The car here is the Harvey 25 car - end of gossip chaps!

[wayno]

I thought the car that went over there was raced in the Thundersports series.

[david5]

Facts are the Brock car went to England and was raced in the touring Championship over there in the mid-eigthies and is being restored back in England as last raced by Brock..
The car here is the Harvey 25 car - end of gossip chaps!

Oh your good. So the car in the museum at Bathurst is what ?

[HDT337]

Facts are the Brock car went to England and was raced in the touring Championship over there in the mid-eigthies and is being restored back in England as last raced by Brock..
The car here is the Harvey 25 car - end of gossip chaps!

The plot thickens...there is a third car now.

HDT337

[gab73]

Facts are the Brock car went to England and was raced in the touring Championship over there in the mid-eigthies and is being restored back in England as last raced by Brock..
The car here is the Harvey 25 car - end of gossip chaps!
Prove it, strip both rear left quarters.

[david5]

The plot thickens...there is a third car now.

HDT337

Yeah it's the one from secret Bathurst testing remember. ;)

[HDT337]

Yeah it's the one from secret Bathurst testing remember. ;)

And I thought it might have been a promo car, was I wrong. lol.

HDT337

[AmonFan]

I always liked John Cleland but im shattererd now to find out that he bent the rules and tricked the officials in running a Group C Commodore in a Group A Touring Car Series.. I am totally gutted....

[GLENN L]

Facts are the Brock car went to England and was raced in the touring Championship over there in the mid-eigthies and is being restored back in England as last raced by Brock..
The car here is the Harvey 25 car - end of gossip chaps!
wtf!!!:confused:

[AmonFan]

wtf!!!:confused:

Makes sense :p afterall it did have numerous accidents :D
It could end up being like open wheelers where you can make 2 or more cars out of 1 ;)

[GLENN L]

ahhh, you make more sense amonfan, but is it a fact:D

[<Jonboy>]

Yeah it's the one from secret Bathurst testing remember. ;)
was that like Woomera? therefore any results for said team should be stripped from the record books ala Mr Eggenberger/Melbourne Storm/Ben Johnson??

[GRPIII]

Facts are the Brock car went to England and was raced in the touring Championship over there in the mid-eigthies and is being restored back in England as last raced by Brock..
The car here is the Harvey 25 car - end of gossip chaps!
you really need to check up on your facts.
not one thing you have said is fact.
the harvey car went to the UK, john harvey has recently written that. FACT.
the car did go to the UK ran in the thundersaloon series not the touring car championship.
your thinking of the HDT group a that was sent to the UK to run in the touring car series in 86.
car 46 from memory.

i take it most of you havent read both investigation threads on the history of both 84 cars that were on the bertiestreet forums??
i still have them on a PDF file, just dont know how to post them.
history doesnt lie.

[david5]

Read them, I printed a hard copy.

[AmonFan]

Read them, I printed a hard copy.

Haha, jokes and my sarcasm aside :p I think its a real shame that the blokes who did the research had to do it in the first place :( to prove to the newbies what has always been ;)

Maybe in 2000/2001 the word repudedly should'nt have been used :p

[Brasha]

i take it most of you havent read both investigation threads on the history of both 84 cars that were on the bertiestreet forums??
i still have them on a PDF file, just dont know how to post them.
history doesnt lie.

I have not:

1) Seen them
2) Printed them
or
3) Read them

But would certainly be interested in doing all three of the above, if someone would be good enough to send them to me.:D

[GRPIII]

Haha, jokes and my sarcasm aside :p I think its a real shame that the blokes who did the research had to do it in the first place :( to prove to the newbies what has always been ;)

Maybe in 2000/2001 the word repudedly should'nt have been used :p
its was just a few of the guys who are very passionate about all things brock/HDT, started off with just the infomation that was required to prove whats whats, but coped a bagging over it, so we dug a little deeper with the help of many people here and overseas including those that drove the cars and the bathurst council, and PC.

[HDT337]

you really need to check up on your facts.
not one thing you have said is fact.
the harvey car went to the UK, john harvey has recently written that. FACT.
the car did go to the UK ran in the thundersaloon series not the touring car championship.
your thinking of the HDT group a that was sent to the UK to run in the touring car series in 86.
car 46 from memory.

i take it most of you havent read both investigation threads on the history of both 84 cars that were on the bertiestreet forums??
i still have them on a PDF file, just dont know how to post them.
history doesnt lie.

I have read probably 95% of it, but would love a copy of the PDF File if its available.

Hint, hint.

HDT337

[ratster70]

I have read probably 95% of it, but would love a copy of the PDF File if its available.

Hint, hint.

HDT337


Yes plz ill take a copy to plz;)

[GRPIII]

does anyone know how to put a PDF up file on here?
would check with the mods here first too if its okay.

[mick78]

I read the thread while it was still on the Bertie Street Forum. You really have to hand to the guys' research there, a little like establishing the provenance of treasure from a shipwreck or something. I was convinced by them.

Whatever the truth, from the history of the car that went to the UK that they researched - it has been substantially altered in its time over there.

I think there were one or two major prangs -there couldn't be much left that was original. The so called car 25 at Bathurst Museum is extremly original. - it wasn't too long ago that they would still let you sit in it.

[f1webber]

does anyone know how to put a PDF up file on here?
would check with the mods here first too if its okay.

If you can post the pdf that would be awesome.
If not i would love a copy too thanks.

Cheers

[wayno]

does anyone know how to put a PDF up file on here?
would check with the mods here first too if its okay.

Sorry to be a party pooper guys but if something was removed from another forum for whatever reason then we don't want it posted here for a number of reasons.
Whatever happens via email is out of our control however. ;)

[doug05]

Would definitely be interested to put my hand up to have a read of this (through email channels of course!) if possible

[Nator05]

As a side note, there were 2 other Group C VK's at Bathurst in 84. The #6 Re-Car entry of Grice Harrington and the #8 K-mart racing entry of Cullen Jones. Does anyone know if these survive also? Would love to see all 4 of them at some stage. I still think the K-mart entry was just as good looking as the HDT cars

[My Element]

As a side note, there were 2 other Group C VK's at Bathurst in 84. The #6 Re-Car entry of Grice Harrington and the #8 K-mart racing entry of Cullen Jones. Does anyone know if these survive also? Would love to see all 4 of them at some stage. I still think the K-mart entry was just as good looking as the HDT cars


think the Kmart one was in the MIA part of AMC in an issue, not sure which one, ill look when i have time

[david5]

think the Kmart one was in the MIA part of AMC in an issue, not sure which one, ill look when i have time

I can hear a member biting his tongue from here :p

[GRPIII]

As a side note, there were 2 other Group C VK's at Bathurst in 84. The #6 Re-Car entry of Grice Harrington and the #8 K-mart racing entry of Cullen Jones. Does anyone know if these survive also? Would love to see all 4 of them at some stage. I still think the K-mart entry was just as good looking as the HDT cars

the grice car is curently undergoing a resto.

[malscar]

I can hear a member biting his tongue from here :p


I want some popcornhttp://www.democraticunderground.com/discus s/images/popcorn.gif

[FastRedCars]

As a side note, there were 2 other Group C VK's at Bathurst in 84. The #6 Re-Car entry of Grice Harrington and the #8 K-mart racing entry of Cullen Jones. Does anyone know if these survive also? Would love to see all 4 of them at some stage. I still think the K-mart entry was just as good looking as the HDT cars

There was a Group A VK in that race as well - one of it's main sponsors was "Big Rooster" - anyone know what became of them, or did they become the "Red Rooster" that's now on HRT?

[Maq]

All the Big rooster stores got re-furbed and is now Red rooster

[smokey_dj]

back to chickadee is what i was told in all its 86 winning glory

[singer]

As a side note, there were 2 other Group C VK's at Bathurst in 84. The #6 Re-Car entry of Grice Harrington and the #8 K-mart racing entry of Cullen Jones. Does anyone know if these survive also? Would love to see all 4 of them at some stage. I still think the K-mart entry was just as good looking as the HDT cars

would love to see both of these made in all scales:)

[david5]

back to chickadee is what i was told in all its 86 winning glory

Good to see your on top of it. :)

[GRPIII]

back to chickadee is what i was told in all its 86 winning glory
not sure what you mean?
was the 84 car converted to grp a specs?

[david5]

not sure what you mean?
was the 84 car converted to grp a specs?

Ooh, you said a mouthful there, how did we get here ?? :o

[GRPIII]

im lost somewhere between grp c & chickadee.
what have i missed?

[AmonFan]

im lost somewhere between grp c & chickadee.
what have i missed?

You are not lost mate ;)

[lukey73]

Hang on let me see if i get this right, are you claiming that the Chickadee VK is a previous Grp C car ? Or what are you suggesting as im lost too :rolleyes:

[fatty]

Yeah me too:confused: One sec we are talking about the Gr C VK Kmart and Roadways Commodores and it's morphed into a Gr A VK Chickadee discussion. Are they all the same car? Cue X Files music.

[malscar]

You are not lost mate ;)


Stop sowing rumours lol:whip:

I thought the Chickadee '86 car was a new for '86 build Les Small car.

[AmonFan]

Stop sowing rumours lol:whip:

I thought the Chickadee '86 car was a new for '86 build Les Small car.

Nah, it was the Chickenman's ex Willo Celica converted... Having seen Doug Clark and John Bourke run the Holden 6cyls in their versions it seemed pretty easy to convert his own. Once the wheelbase was changed the car was then slowly converted into VK spec...

[Nator05]

So I'm watching 86 atcc round 6 from surfers right now and Im amazed that Bailys VK was his old Cileca!

[GRPIII]

i may be up to date on the brock vks but havent really looked into the grice car, but if the grice vk is under going a resto & the 86 car is alive & well?.................
2 into 1 doesnt go.

[GRPIII]

me bad the pics i have of the grice car are vh.