Super 2000 Touring Car Series for Australia. Would it work??

[beast]

Been watching a lot of WTCC, BTCC and STCC (Swedish Championship) and think these cars put on some brilliant racing.

Would a series like this work in Australia? Could it rival V8 Supercars?

[MP4/22]

Yes and .................. Yes. Toyota, Mazda, Volvo, and Hyundai will be in it in 2 seconds....

[El Cheapo]

I'd say no it wouldn't, since Aussie already has a few dozen motorsport championships. I loved the Super Tourers when they were around, but alas that series died too :(

I suppose if they killed off the Fujitsu series and replaced it with this, it would work. But the subsequent uproar would be pretty big.

[beast]

Yes and .................. Yes. Toyota, Mazda, Volvo, and Hyundai will be in it in 2 seconds....

I would bring in a different crowd. Not everyone loves Fords and Holdens, even though i think it would be funny watching them 2 makes get beaten by everyone else.

[MP4/22]

Any series that listened to the fans would be successful, V8 stupidcars no longer do. They did in 1997 but not now Red v Blue is obsolete, and the series is worked into a corner with the regulations i.e. 5.0L V8's.

[beast]

Any series that listened to the fans would be successful, V8 stupidcars no longer do. They did in 1997 but not now Red v Blue is obsolete, and the series is worked into a corner with the regulations i.e. 5.0L V8's.

Thats exactly right.

Here are the technical regulations:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/D429200CBDE54EEBC125757C005B46D5/$FILE/ 263%20_09-10_170309.pdf

[Kashmir]

Would a series like this work in Australia? Could it rival V8 Supercars?

Depends who you talk to personally I think 2l 4cyl = boring

[kts350]

Depends who you talk to personally I think 2l 4cyl = boring

I agree

[beast]

Depends who you talk to personally I think 2l 4cyl = boring

Very well put. This is the proof that not everybody loves the same thing. Maybe Cockroach needs to read this forum, he might learn something.

[singer]

It may well work with input from a variety of Manufacturers.

Personally, I like variety in my Motorsport

[ratster70]

Sorry i agree with kash and kts YAAAAWWWNNNN fest :p yes not everybody loves V8's i know that but hey they had super tourers here already and where is it now thats right gone because it wasnt either a. popular enough and b. succesful here. Yes i know you cant buy the so called fords and holdens they race anymore but those 2 makes are still the most popular and bought makes in australia hence why its still around;) Just my 2 bobs worth anyways

[gab73]

Sorry i agree with kash and kts YAAAAWWWNNNN fest :p yes not everybody loves V8's i know that but hey they had super tourers here already and where is it now thats right gone because it wasnt either a. popular enough and b. succesful here. Yes i know you cant buy the so called fords and holdens they race anymore but those 2 makes are still the most popular and bought makes in australia hence why its still around;) Just my 2 bobs worth anyways
Can't compare the 2 series, they where marketed buy different organisations.

[beast]

Can't compare the 2 series, they where marketed buy different organisations.

Yep exactly right there gab. Super Tourers were great, however the technology in the cars priced themselves out of existance. The Super 2000 cars are almost completly different, they dont even allow car to pit telemetry to help keep the costs down.

[ratster70]

Can't compare the 2 series, they where marketed buy different organisations.

whats that got to do with it everyone is whining how cochrane is killing the V8's. marketing gots nothing to do with it if the people wanted it they would have gone to it which they didnt it didnt have a big enough market the same as a lot of the support categories that run with the V8's on their own they wouldnt get the crowds they currently enjoy like it or not the V8's are the premier series here and always will be because the paying public speak with their wallets. The super tourers had a fairly long run here and didnt survive for that reason there isnt a big enough market here for them same as if the V8's went to europe i seriously dont believe it would be successful because the people their go to watch the cars they drive same as here

[gab73]

whats that got to do with it everyone is whining how cochrane is killing the V8's. marketing gots nothing to do with it if the people wanted it they would have gone to it which they didnt it didnt have a big enough market the same as a lot of the support categories that run with the V8's on their own they wouldnt get the crowds they currently enjoy like it or not the V8's are the premier series here and always will be because the paying public speak with their wallets. The super tourers had a fairly long run here and didnt survive for that reason there isnt a big enough market here for them same as if the V8's went to europe i seriously dont believe it would be successful because the people their go to watch the cars they drive same as here
Marketing has everything to do with it, why do you think Billions is spent on it, V8 supercabs is the most popular form of Motorsport in this country, surpassing Group C/A in popularity. Why is the racing better????
You can have the worst product in the world, through marketing it can become the most succesful.

[ratster70]

Marketing has everything to do with it, why do you think Billions is spent on it, V8 supercabs is the most popular form of Motorsport in this country, surpassing Group C/A in popularity. Why is the racing better????
You can have the worst product in the world, through marketing it can become the most succesful.

Have to agee to disagree gab yes marketing helps but if people dont enjoy the product they dont go do they? simple as that! facts dont lie the crowd figures are bigger than ever are they not thats why its popular and successful. You ask the question is the racing better? Alot of people must think so cause their still going arent they. Yes sponsors pump lots of money into sponsoring and marketing but like it or not the people who attend are the ones who dictate if its successful or not if they dont come thats a lot of wasted money isnt it. Just 1 of the main reasons why the tourers are no longer here the majority of the paying public didnt want them because they like the V8 racing more enough said

[gab73]

I wasn't posting an opinion, just stating the facts. Marketing is the most powerful tool in the world! again a fact not an opinion. You keep on telling someone something is fantastic, they can't live without it, they'l miss out etc They Will Believe this.

[El Cheapo]

It'll be a nice day when people define how good a racing category is by the racing itself. Whether the cars racing are 4 cylinder or 8 cylinder shouldn't matter. BTCC season 1998 was the racing season with the best racing I've ever seen, Donington in the wet being the best race I've ever seen. Not because the cars sounded awesome or because they were all based on road cars (although I think both are true anyway :D), but because the drivers were just that skilled and that desperate for a win.

Who gives a stuff if the 'Supercabs' look like taxi's. We all know they're not :laugh4: They're capable of delivering great racing and shouldn't that be all that really matters?

[beast]

It'll be a nice day when people define how good a racing category is by the racing itself. Whether the cars racing are 4 cylinder or 8 cylinder shouldn't matter. BTCC season 1998 was the racing season with the best racing I've ever seen, Donington in the wet being the best race I've ever seen. Not because the cars sounded awesome or because they were all based on road cars (although I think both are true anyway :D), but because the drivers were just that skilled and that desperate for a win.

Who gives a stuff if the 'Supercabs' look like taxi's. We all know they're not :laugh4: They're capable of delivering great racing and shouldn't that be all that really matters?

That Donington race also has my vote for the best ever, especially the driving from Nigel Mansell in the Mondeo which was rubbish that year.

[Holdennumber1]

I havn't read all the posts in this thread (bloody annoying on an iPod) but I agree with Daniel that it'd be boring. BTCC produces some great racing but would it appeal in Aus? I'd much rather seeing our Aussie V8's race than import little washing machine
look alike's. 1 main series is enough IMP.

[kts350]

The series won;t work here but some of the regs I think might be good for the V8's since they want to keep some of the costs down..

[supa-roo]

I wasn't posting an opinion, just stating the facts. Marketing is the most powerful tool in the world! again a fact not an opinion. You keep on telling someone something is fantastic, they can't live without it, they'l miss out etc They Will Believe this.

Gotta agree with gab here on marketing, how many people NEED an ipod or touch phone, it's all about how it's marketed, they both have compeditors but ipod just do it better.
I think if this series gets a marketing guru behind it and a couple of big name drivers it may work

[ratster70]

Gotta agree with gab here on marketing, how many people NEED an ipod or touch phone, it's all about how it's marketed, they both have compeditors but ipod just do it better.
I think if this series gets a marketing guru behind it and a couple of big name drivers it may work


Ummm supa so your saying theres no big name drivers in our current V8's if i remember correctly just about all the drivers involved in the V8's/groupA's what ever you want to call them were involved in the super tourers when it ran here and it folded like i keep saying the viewing people didnt get behind it doesnt matter how good the marketing is if the people dont want it it wont last simple. just for the record im not one of the sheep with an ipod or touch phone;)

[supa-roo]

Ummm supa so your saying theres no big name drivers in our current V8's if i remember correctly just about all the drivers involved in the V8's/groupA's what ever you want to call them were involved in the super tourers when it ran here and it folded like i keep saying the viewing people didnt get behind it doesnt matter how good the marketing is if the people dont want it it wont last simple. just for the record im not one of the sheep with an ipod or touch phone;)

Nah I'm saying if a couple of the names in the current v8's jumped over they would take a fan base following with them.
Super tourers folded here like the same as europe and what will happen to the current v8's and to some degree has happen to F1, it cost too much to run these cars, why should a wishbone cost over 25k here and only 5kUS on a nascar just as an example.
Some of these supa teams spend squillions of dollars for a couple of 10th's of a second which I know can win you a race but the smaller budgeted teams have no hope of competing with this.

Spose we'll have to wait for this car of the future progam and see what it brings, It's already got marketing program up and running with alot of people already talking about it.

[David Towe]

I think you'll find that,

In the first 3-4 years of Supertouring the crowds were quite healthy.

The V8 marketing machine palyed on the "Aussie Holden V Aussie Ford" passions, but as we all know there's not much genuine Holden and Ford in them these days.

Don't compare the situation that existed when STs died effectively 10 years ago now, as the playing field has changed so much now. Many people are bored with the tripe offered up at present and can see it's no longer what was on offer in 1994.

A good marketing campaign and a couple of factory backed teams with the right variety of cars could make a dent in the "V8 Taxi" business (it's not a sport these days?). In 1994 the marketing went along the lines of "see cars that Aussies drive racing on weekends". The push could be along the same lines with the S2000s, as not many of the V8Taxi crowd actually drive V8 Holdens and Fords.

I, unashamedly, would like to see it given some serious thought.

[ratster70]

Hmmmm i must attend a different tripe as you put it David as not many drive V8 holdens and fords attend hey cause bloody hell where i go theres a hell of a lot of V8's driven and yes im one of them and i attend several rounds each year :rolleyes: and if there is so many bored people how come the numbers are bigger and better every year. Dont get me wrong id love for it to return to the good old days of the real holden versus ford stuff that we all grew up on but i love todays racing just as much and if the V8's dissappear and all we are left with is 4 and 6 cyl buxbox racing supertourers im sorry but they will loose this fan:(

[SDK]

Don't compare the situation that existed when STs died effectively 10 years ago now, as the playing field has changed so much now. Many people are bored with the tripe offered up at present and can see it's no longer what was on offer in 1994.

"Many" people may be, yet there's proof that many people aren't.

I'd still watch a good 2L series though or how about a GroupA styled series, particularly if the playing field has changed.

[inter]

why can they run together and make equal prize money in two classes?

[Andrew]

why can they run together and make equal prize money in two classes?

I can't imagine Tony Cochrane allowing that.

[David Towe]

I can't imagine Tony Cochrane allowing that.
Watch it happen as soon as he realises that changes are well and truly (in many people's opinions) overdue and he can figure out a way of making money out of it. SDK, a modified Group A style set of regs........Hmmm, very interesting! Stop the "homologation specials" and it could be a goer.

[david5]

Watch it happen as soon as he realises that changes are well and truly (in many people's opinions) overdue and he can figure out a way of making money out of it. SDK, a modified Group A style set of regs........Hmmm, very interesting! Stop the "homologation specials" and it could be a goer.

Yep, couldn't agree more.

[David Paterson]

I loved Super Touring and was very sad to see it go. I used to love V8SC, but I'm getting tired of it now.

I love variety in motorsport and i think Group A was the greatest class of all time, but for 2 flaws, turbos had too much of an advantage and the 500 homologation special rule was a huge mistake.

[Leigh]

Watch it happen as soon as he realises that changes are well and truly (in many people's opinions) overdue and he can figure out a way of making money out of it. SDK, a modified Group A style set of regs........Hmmm, very interesting! Stop the "homologation specials" and it could be a goer.


But the "many" people you speak of are still a minority amongst the customers...even if some of the many are long-term customers...

From a business perspective, the teams drive for the series, they could go and drive in any other series but I'd bet the income is not as good, therefore they will stay where the "paying" customer continues to go and the income is highest, even if they don't like it. This may not be on par with purests such as yourself...

What I find extremely funny, is the majority of the vocal people in the media who are singing from this anti-V8 Supercar hymn sheet are the same people who were anti-Group A...seems to me they just don't want a financially successful series, but a ground-roots one where most competitors run at a loss. So what exactly in your mind is wrong with the current series?

[Leigh]

I love variety in motorsport and i think Group A was the greatest class of all time, but for 2 flaws, turbos had too much of an advantage and the 500 homologation special rule was a huge mistake.

This variety that many speak of comes from different categories...it has rarely come from an individual category! Gee it was so entertaining to watch the lead 4-5 Group A cars lap the field at most race tracks, while the mobile chicanes just wrecked the flow of racing...

[AmonFan]

I'd be keen to see a non safety car, no pit stop 40 lapper V8 Supecar race at Winton :)

[spolyhronidis]

This variety that many speak of comes from different categories...it has rarely come from an individual category! Gee it was so entertaining to watch the lead 4-5 Group A cars lap the field at most race tracks, while the mobile chicanes just wrecked the flow of racing...
yes, it was entertaining. that's why some of us would like to see it again. it's unlikely to happen at the highest level, but so what. we can still ask to see it.

[david5]

So what exactly in your mind is wrong with the current series?

Too expensive, too repetitive, contrived rules, too much like a sports sedan, trying too hard to be like NASCAR.

Gee it was so entertaining to watch the lead 4-5 Group A cars lap the field at most race tracks, while the mobile chicanes just wrecked the flow of racing...

To give V8SC some kudos, it is very well marketed & as a result there is much more money for the teams & this has resulted in helping make for closer fields. Group A was in a period when there were only a select few with the budgets & they always floated to the top. Many of the teams were not full time, this also helped to create bigger gaps between the front & rear teams. As David pointed out there were problems with Group A, the specials & the turbo parity issues.

[David Towe]

Can anyone confirm a rumour that I heard the other day that Skaifey has been tasked by Vesa to oversee the introduction of another manufacturer?
If this is true, why would they be doing so Leigh? Could it be they realise they have a stale series?
Let's get back to the point though. I think a modified Group A style set of regs could be interesting. Meaningful minimum production numbers supported by proof of actual road registration. This takes out the homogation specials where the minimum number was so low the dealers themselves were the registered owners of the vast majority of these cars. Keep many of the parts production based and make them use production chassis and suspension points. Add a maximum list price for the road registered version to eliminate the Ferraris, BMW M3s, Lambos etc. and even the new GTR at $150 K or around that figure.
Use a power to weight to engine size to tyres size to exhaust size and add a reasonable conversion factor for turbo engines. Cars with different configurations will have different strengths. Race on a mix of circuits, some with a long straight, some without. What's wrong with a race around a short circuit? Let the little guys have an outright chance there and the big cars on the longer circuits. Unashamedly like the old Group A but better and fairer.
Markjeting is the key!

[Leigh]

Stale series, or two manufacturers that can't support 28 cars...you seem to be the one with the knowledge David, can you CONFIRM that V8SA are admitting it is stale?

Mark Skaife was also tasked with the COTF...just because MS is looking into something, does not mean it will happen.

Your series would not work as you plan David. Unfortunately life was and is not that simple. The series you describe is what evolved into Group C and then Group A because it was open to far too much manipulation. I've spoken to several current Series Production drivers who complain that to be up the front they would need to spend almost as much on there car as a lower V8 supercar team spends...heard similar numbers for the Biante Touring Car Masters too.

[Leigh]

Too expensive, too repetitive, contrived rules, too much like a sports sedan, trying too hard to be like NASCAR.


Expense is related to income. The top team in the top category will always outspend others, because they attract the biggest income...they will just find different ways to spend the money if you tighten the rules. You can spend just as much on a production car as a V8 Supercar looking for that extra few tenths a lap...one acquintance spent 2 months on the dyno chasing 10 extra hp for the honour of being "horsepower hero" at Summernats:eek:, cause the prize money certainly did not make up for his time!

Contrived rules? Well have to agree with some of the illogic over the last few years...whatever happened to common sense? Then again, I've seen some pretty rotten rules in other series too...

What exactly is wrong with Sports Sedan and NASCAR? This seems to be everybodies biggest problem. People have always claimed "badge" honours...Victor Bray in his 57 Chev? Ben Bray in his Monaro? I remember a SAAB ad in th 80's proclaiming victory in a Sports Sedan race...pity it was Chev powered etc etc...heck, people on another current thread are saying "nice Torana" when there is little Torana left...so why does V8 Supercars have to be "pure" road car?

I'm not saying that there should not be a Super Tourer type category, I just think people need to think through their logic a little more. A wholesale change of rules will not change the guard, but will probably lose a lot of supporters...and income to the teams.

[rayman]

David Towe is correct about marketing being the key. Has the thought ever crossed anybody's minds about the amount of motorsport fans in Australia who do not give a hoot about Ford or Holden? Gasp! Then imagine the extra supporter's who would follow in a new series with more manufacturers, still with Ford and Holden. When you only have the Supercar series as the top level motor racing and crammed down your throat, what else are you to do? What are the Supercars without sponsor's anyway? Take the sponsor's away and what is left? I for one, am sick to death of seeing a line of lookalikes going round and round with only the safety car making it more interesting.

[david5]

I'm not bagging any other class & I like Sports Sedans, I just dislike what our premier class has evolved into. They lean heavily on the heritage of the class & the Red Vs Blue stuff, yet they have abandoned it. It's Holden's advertising BS Vs Fords.

The first two years of the class were the best for mine, at least they were still production shells. Go back to that & put in a class structure.

[Leigh]

Red v Blue is a Holden thing...usually refers to Holden v GM :p

I typed a post about marketing, and binned it, but it went into that...marketing only works if the market wants what you have to sell. Red v Blue (as much as I hate it) works. Most advertising in sport/entertainment is by association anyway and rarely a basis for the real thing...hence my comments above. Ben Bray's Monaro has less Holden in it than a V8 Supercar, but Holden still claim the win, but then so do Castrol etc

All a bit of a moot point really, I'll watch anything race (cause it is about the race, not the "number of passes", "number of different makes" or whatever else). Should see the dirty tactics of our turtles when they race through the water for the one piece of food I throw them LMAO!

[david5]

Do you match them against Hares ??

[Andrew]

I think Leigh makes some very interesting points. I admit I am not a fan of the V8 category but then I support neither Ford nor Holden. However the category has to be financially viable. As much as I dislike the status quo, it is supremely marketed and the racing is close. While it's a shame that only two manufacturers have the playground to themselves and parity in all things seems to be the bible, I think there are elements of previous posts that could be implemented should an expanded set of rules be tried (perhaps trialled in Production Cars). The idea about mixing the tracks up so that there is a fair ratio of short, tight and twisty tracks is a great one. No matter the might of the GT-Rs in Group A, the B&H BMWs were always strong - and even won - at Lakeside.

Certainly, any changes need a lot of tinkering. But as Leigh pointed out, I have not seen or heard V8SC talking about a stale series and the need to reinvigorate anything. With circuits fighting to be on the program, further expansion overseas and tight title fights between Ford and holden, I'd think they'd be rather happy with how things are going.

It seems that it is only those of us with no love for Ford or Holden who are yawning.

[david5]

I would think that the three teams that went out of the series this year would still like to be in it.

[bortall]

I too find V8's boring about 70% of the time, so I found another place to go see racing??

State & national level - plenty of different makes and models and a series for just about everyone.
http://www.vicstateraceseries.com/
http://www.thenationals.com.au/

No real need for another series - just watch what is already out there.

[David Towe]

I was reading Aust. Muscle Car earlier today (the edition with the HT Monaro on the cover) and read what John Bowe had to say re the rules and found it very interesting indeed. Sorry I can't post it here for copyright reasons .......and the fact that I don't know how to do it.

[VXfan]

If we can get some racing like I see in the BTCC then bring it on!
Lots of aggression and a lot less interference from the officials.Lets be honest,if any drivers so much as fart in each others direction in the V8's,there's some form of penalty dished out.
Lost count of the times I dozed off watching the V8's last year.
I think we need more emphasis on drivers and less on teh manufacturer i.e. more fans getting behind their favourite driver rather than what he is driving
Personally,I would be cheering Murph on even if he was driving a sodding Lada.
Cheers,
Tony.

[David Towe]

Personally,I would be cheering Murph on even if he was driving a sodding Lada.
Cheers,
Tony.
Careful what you wish for Tony, I remember the Brock version of the Lada Samara.

[UNDFTD]

I remember the Brock version of the Lada Samara.

sorry for going off topic, but what was Brocky thinking:eek:
to think he actually put his name on one of these

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/8543/8fea1.jpg (http://img51.imageshack.us/i/8fea1.jpg/)

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/83/a4d81.jpg (http://img697.imageshack.us/i/a4d81.jpg/)

[Oh Five]

Put his name on the polarizer too:o
Done some silly things , our PB:D

[beast]

If we can get some racing like I see in the BTCC then bring it on!
Lots of aggression and a lot less interference from the officials.Lets be honest,if any drivers so much as fart in each others direction in the V8's,there's some form of penalty dished out.
Lost count of the times I dozed off watching the V8's last year.
I think we need more emphasis on drivers and less on teh manufacturer i.e. more fans getting behind their favourite driver rather than what he is driving
Personally,I would be cheering Murph on even if he was driving a sodding Lada.
Cheers,
Tony.

Tony, i swear u must be my twin or something, i 100% agree.
I wouldnt knock the Lada too much, Jimmy Thompson got one into the points at least once in the WTCC this year.

[singer]

Careful what you wish for Tony, I remember the Brock version of the Lada Samara.

How about the Brock EA Falcon too:p

[racer69]

The Brock Samara actually wasn't too bad, i owned one. I've upgraded and drive a Niva these days though :)