Another question from an ignorant Pom

[Nick Short]

Can anyone tell me why the crowd booed Skaife and Richards at the end of the '92 Bathurst?

And is it true that the RS500 Sierras weren't popular when they first appeared in '87 because they didn't represent cars that Aussies could actually buy in the showrooms?

As you can see I still have a lot to learn......

[burge05]

Nick, the reason the Skaife and Richards were booed was because they infact crashed the car but were declared the winners as the race was red flagged and on the way they work out the winner it was Skaife and Richards. I must say that was the most spectacular ending to a race i've seen for a while.

[V8SS]

My memory is that the Aussies were sick of seeing Bathurst dominated by rice burner turbos and wanted to see it won by an Aussie V8. 1993 saw the introduction of V8 Supercars. I also think there was a bit of ill feeling as everyone thought crowd favourite Dick Johnson should have been the winner.
Jimmy Richards acceptance speech has gone down in history though, the contents of which probably aren't allowed on this forum.

[terrine]

thats quite true, but they were very fast riceburners werent they?

[ferrari fan]

These much loved V8's are in all respect very old technology and need to be racing in a class off there own otherwise they will not make it to the front .
because these types of gasguzzelers are much loved here in Australia and have been around for ever they are very intreched.
modern technology has gone forward in leaps and bounds and therefore it is not suppricing that one can only get so much H.P. sauce out of one off these engines plus they are very heavy.
the average V8 lover thinks of anything less than V8/5ltr as a Lawnmowerengine .
Big country/big engine/big noise/big weight/big cars/big sheila's ,
coming from a different background it is a different world, but very enjoyable
NSU TTS 1000 ,Simca Rally II ,Renault Gordini Hillman Imp
these words mean nothing here in good old Aus.:)

[berkut76]

I have to agree and disagree with you Ferrari Fan.
Firstly, the Aussies are incredibly lucky with their GM and Ford offerings. You are blessed to have a host of original designs that could compete with Rice Burners or Euro deisgns. Not so, here in the US. The American-designed passenger vehicles are simply not selling over here. As a matter of fact, the glorious Camaro has been "retired". On the other hand, you are correct in your assesment that the "big blocked" American V8s are lacking in technology. In various mags, I've seen people squeezing 300+hp out of 1.8L Hondas.

Regards,
Sergey

[oldxr]

They were booed for the simple reason that their car car won the race even though it was sitting in a broken heap at the top of conrod, and mr Tim Schenkin declared the race 2 laps prior to the red flag instead of the usual 1 which if that had been the case the SHELL team of D Johnson and J Bowe would of won.
One of many bad call by Schenkin.

[brchi17]

I think from memory that the reason as to why the race was awarded to Richards & Skaife, was because the race was being run under INTERNATIONAL rules which at the at the time which stated that the winner of the race is the leader from two laps before the red flag lap.
The AUSTRALIAN rules at time were to count back to the completion of the previous lap and they were the winner.
If the 1992 Bathurst race had have been run under AUSTRALIAN rules, then DICK JOHNSON & JOHN BOWE, would have been the winner as they (Dick at the wheel at the time) lead the last completed lap at Bathurst that year (Dick actually passed the crashed Nissan on the last lap for the lead)

[Nick Short]

Thanks guys - on the video it does look as though everyone, including DJ, thought the Sierra had won. A bit controversial I guess, like Schumacher winning while in the pitlane serving a drive-through penalty - shocking! Jim Richards' speech from the podium is exactly what I as a Pom would expect anyhow from an Aussie - aren't you all as straight-talking as that?! Very funny though, and I can't blame hime - if you've driven your hardest to win, and are declared the winner, to be booed and have things thrown at you really must sour the experience. I suppose by '92 the RS500 Sierras must have been accepted, especially when driven by Aussie heroes!

[ET351]

Another view on '92....

If memory serves correctly, the DJR team made a tactical masterstroke by changing from slicks to wets just as the rain storm hit Mt Panorama. Others, notably Richards and Skaife, tried to squeeze one more lap on slicks, but were caught out on the top of the mountain.

The stewards declared the race, taking it on the last lap the Nissan completed, despite them sitting in a steaming heap as DJ raced past and crossed the line....

I don't want to sound bitter, but it was just another cog in the wheel that seems to turn against Ford.

Cheers, ET

[ferrari fan]

At the time ,I could not for the world understand how the nissan won. And even now I think that DJR won!
Timmo ,since a cams wage earner ,even when I was a regular competitor has not inpressed me. Before that he must have been OK as he drove for FERRARI. ;)

[XR6WGN]

Originally posted by Nick Short
And is it true that the RS500 Sierras weren't popular when they first appeared in '87 because they didn't represent cars that Aussies could actually buy in the showrooms?

As you can see I still have a lot to learn......

Not quite - The races were run under international grp A rules and the Sierra had been seen the year before in the RS guise. 1987 saw Bathurst run under the World Touring Car championship rules and we Australians didn't really like being told how to run our premier race - Especially when the Hammeburger (Texaco) cars turn up with completely different flares, a tyre one size up on anything else, illegal fuels etc. As Dick johnson said they made us look like fools. But it was great when he finally got the chance to show how fast his Sierras were - It was the British Tourist Trophy at Silverstone in 88 - Pole by over a second, from start to first corner 250metres ahead and just blitzed them until an Oring in the water pump failed - Ah Well.

What eventually happened was that the Turbos were dominating too much so changes were made to ban them and the V8's were baically born from that.

Hope this helps ya

Paul B
XR6WGN

[Aussiecollector]

FF, Obviously you have not been under the bonnet of a V8 Super car lately. To say they are old technology is a bit of a laugh.

V8's are not dead yet, it does'nt have to have a V12 or have Turbo to be Modern. These engines are very high tech and although not quite F1 standards they are putting on a pretty good show.

And remember its the growl that gets the crowd excited, I don't remember getting to excited about a Ford Mondeo coming across the top of the hill.

But then again you are into tractors aren't you!!!

Cheers Glenn

[Nick Short]

Hi Paul - I had no idea that Dick Johnson had raced in the UK! I can understand the Aussies not liking their race invaded and rules dictated by foreign teams, especially when they cheat! I wasn't aware of Aussie motorsport back then, but I was very unimpressed when the BBC showed Bathurst a while ago, and when I switched on I was horrified to see Ford Mondeos and Renaults crawling round, so I can imagine what you guys thought! Now Channel 5 here shows 3 hour highlights of the V8 Supercars (at 3am!), so I'm happy again.

[drof]

Hi Nick, One point I will get clear from the start is Jim Richards is NOT an Aussie but a New Zealander, a "Kiwi"!! He is just another that those Aussies would like to call their own but is not. As you are coming to terms with the Ford vs Holden debate, it is exactly the same as with Kiwis vs Aussies. Take for instance myself I am a Ford Fan, a True blue diehard but I still get behind Greg Murphy because he is a Kiwi, at the Pukekohe round last year when it was evident to us Ford fans that a Ford was'nt going to win I turned myself into a Greg Murphy Fan, yelling and screaming ontop of Ford Mountain with alot of other devot Blue Oval Religious people. The reason you may ask well it's simple Greg is a Kiwi and he bet all those other Aussie racers on his Home Track, Great stuff to watch!!
Just to move off the subject for the while but....
A memory of that day even though it involved violence, and a drunk , and I don't believe in violence.It was when the drivers were having their pre-race drive in the back of convertables that a certain self proclaimed Holden Priest started slagging off at Craig Lowndes calling him every name under the sun,swearing, yelling, foul mouth and the rest of the carry on,after at least 3-5 minutes of this and numerous calls for him to shut up from both Ford and Holden supporters(there was alot of kids around) that a 50 something year old that was sitting directly in front of him with a Craig lowndes shirt on and waving a 00 Motorsport flag had, had enough and turned around and planted him one right on the Kisser, good night nurse. The reason that this is a memory for me is that the guy was a Holden supporter but changed to the Blue Oval when Craig defected, this guy was'nt drinking beer he was there with his family just enjoying the day. The Drunk guy must of been Australian because he was drinking VB!!Ha Ha!!
Hopefully now Nick what you might see is the great New Zealand Australia rivalry emerge in this thread, you will probably get those Aussies claiming such things as Pavlova,Russell Crowe, Crowded House,Jandels etc etc but Nick these are all New Zealand Exports.
Looking forward to all those Aussie excuses, oh and by the way Nick have you noticed on these Threads who are constantly moaning and whinging and whining about every litytle detail, you got it Aussies!!

Regards

Dave from Kiwiland!!

ps Who won the 1st Bledislode encounter?

[SWRT]

Hey drof,
You forgot to mentian the soccer as well,damn.
I think what that 50yr ford guy gave that foolish Holden 'priest' what he deserved and I'd love to see alot more of that here in Australia because I'm also a lowndes fan turned from Holden and I hope Ingall does as well.
The QLD 500 last year ended in a similar way exept it ended up in the way Dick Johnson wanted this time.
When Radisich speared off and got bogged I knew that he still had won.
The rules for the 92 Bathurst were still under international Group A rules with meant if the red flag is brought out the results are brought back 2 laps but for the QLD 500 the rules were"if the race is stopped the race result goes back 1 lap".
So both ways I think were quite fair.
Also one thing I notive about mad Holden supporters is that they only back one driver....Mark Skaife,and don't give a stuff about the rest but it would be interesting to see who the MAD holden fans back at Bathurst.
Will they stick with backing Skaife/Richards,will they give thier support to Larry'Pensioner'Perkins in his last full season Bathurst or will they go for the man who made Holden what it is today...Brocky.
Go Lowndes and Brock....Bathurst 2002

[Nick Short]

Whoo - it's a steep learining curve, but I'm beginning to get the basics. Ford/Holden, Australia/New Zealand, I'm just not sure where I, as a Pom, should stand. For safety's sake I reckon I'll carry on liking both manufacturers, and although I've been to Oz, I still plan to visit NZ. No controversy there.........And my next Biante model is due to be an A9X (whenever it finally makes it into production), probably followed by a Falcon. Actually I guess that means I lay myself open to abuse from both sides now!

[Aussiecollector]

Right behind Murphy?

Last time I looked he was neither woolly nor 4 legged.

Sorry I could'nt resist.

Good yarn Dave sorry I fell asleep during the second paragraph what was it you were saying again.

Glenn
Tongue in cheek Aussie.

[XR6WGN]

Originally posted by Nick Short
I wasn't aware of Aussie motorsport back then, but I was very unimpressed when the BBC showed Bathurst a while ago, and when I switched on I was horrified to see Ford Mondeos and Renaults crawling round,

Nick,
I tried to answer this at work but our firewall blocked it - anyway here we go,

After Grp A virtually finished with the Banning of turbos, there was (for want of a better term) a bit of a limbo - There was a movement to create the 2lt Supertourers as the premier class of tintop motor racing and yes they did race at Bathurst. At the same time the top raceing teams started developing the class that would eventually lead to today's V8 supercars, they set up their own series and eventually it became the premier class as most of the top 2 lt drivers started to build their own V8 supercars. As a fan of all motor sport I didn't actually hate the 2 ltr series but with our love of V8s (who cares if they are dinosaurs) I think the 2 lt series was doomed on day one.

And i wasn't going to say anything but in answer to this,
"oh and by the way Nick have you noticed on these Threads who are constantly moaning and whinging and whining about every litytle detail, you got it Aussies!!"

I'm a Pom by birth and a Naturalised Aussie so i guess that makes me twice a whinger - DOES IT DROF?????

Take it in jest

Paul B
XR6WGN

[Jed]

I think we may have an "Endagered Species" here..

A 'Kiwi' who actually lives in New Zulland ???
(Thought they were all over here?? .. T. firmly I.C.)

Hope the last person to leave remembers to turn off the lights!!!

Sorry Dave, couldn't resist!

Keep The Shiny Side Up!!

Ed. C.

[ferrari fan]

Yes, Aussiecollector ,I am intertested in a wide variety of subjects and do enjoy the tractor scene.
Are you having your montly two day unwellness ? I hope that you will feel much better again.
Please be kind to an old and frail ferrari fan as I cannot stand to much excitment any more.
Thank you for frequently thinking about me and mentioning my forumname in your highly entertaining correspondence
yours in collecting
ferrari fan.;)

[Aussiecollector]

No Prob's

Just do us a favour, If your going to buy unlicensed products don't promote the fact.

I am sure that you don't want to see a 10 car field in F1.

Glenn

[ferrari fan]

Please do not asume that I BUY unlicenced products nor state this as a fact on this or any forum please.
If friends of mine do buy these items as a present for me then that is as it is . I cannot affort at my age to make new friends or turn longterm friends in new enemies .I am frightened enough as it is.
Bye the way is your headache or other unwellnes gone , I sincerely hope that this is the case!
yours in collecting,
ferrari fan.

[Aussiecollector]

FF,

Why is it that you think I am unwell, my life is great, business is great, third child is on the way, collection is growing each week.

You must have me confused with someone else.

Cheers

Glenn
Wearing original Team Minardi Clothing not cheap Bali rip off's

[Andrew]

Coming back to the '92 Bathurst discussion - I believe that Richards and Skaife deserved to win the race - they led all day (apart from the first 1-2 laps when they took the lead). Rain storms and pace cars thwarted their opportunity to pull away (which they undoubtedly would have done, despite their weight increase and boost decrease), until that fateful last rainstorm that annihilated the field and red flagged the race. I admit that leading all day does not give anyone the monopoly to win a race, and I feel sorry for Dick Johnson as he and John Bowe obviously drove well, but rules are rules, and to keep moaning about them is pointless - particularly as it is a decade since the race occurred!
I think the domestic Touring Car Championship took a backward step the day Godzilla was ruled out, as it took away the technological spectacle of modern motor racing. Twin Turbos and Four Wheel drive brought a new professionalism to Australian Touring Car Racing, and although the V8's couldn't fairly compete (the BMW's did ok), there was nothing stopping the Ford and Holden camps from similarly producing Four Wheel Drive race cars - even with their beloved V8. Nissan and Gibson motorsport built a better 'mousetrap' (as it were), and were eventually penalised for doing so by the car's ejection from the 1993 (and beyond) Championship. I think there are a place for V8's in motor racing, but I also think there should be a place for other configurations/specifications too, in the same formula. I don't watch V8 Supercars because I see no real difference between the machines (that's not to take anything away from the professionalism of the teams in the Championship). But by Ford and Holden throwing their toys out of the pram in 1992-3, I believe it irreparably harmed the top level of Touring Car Racing in Australia. I hope to one day see Godzilla roar across the mountain again. And perhaps BMW would like to bring along their M3 too...


PS. I don't particularly want to get drawn into a slinging match over this either.

[VRSS]

Just how many Aussies can afford or even find a Twin Turbo 4 wheel drive compared to the number who can afford a V8 Holden or F.

That is how interest is carried by the majority of the crowds. They don't want to watch something that is not part of the Australian street scene.

Also, whatever happened to there having to be 500 units registered on the roads before they could be used at Bathurst? Lucky to be a handful of "Godzillas" in the country.

Keep our premier race to cars bred and built here. I'd even agree to the smaller engine classes returning but there are enough cars on the mountain as it is and the slower, small capacity cars would just cause accidents and stop us seeing what the real grunters can get up to.

I know someone is going to say something to the fact that most of the smaller cars are now designed and built overseas so this is a better reason for just having the grunters on the mountain.

[MkTT500]

Interesting all this talk of the 92 race.

I was always a fan of the old international Group A rules, I liked the idea of a Touring car World Championship too, shame it was put down after just the one year (1987 -incidently another year the Bathurst "winners" copped an earful)!

One thing I was wondering was where is the real car now? (the Winfield Nissan that is- Oh can I say Winfield)...
Was this piece of Australian racing history (love it or hate it) packed off to race in the Japanese Touring car champs? (I seem to recall a quite distressed Mark Skaife telling us that this was its fate in an interview a few years back).

[biante1047]

Who wouldn't want to Boo Skaife??

[ferrari fan]

I have got an exact schrunk replica here complete with the full signwritting on it .
I would like to put next to it the Ford Sierra of trikky dicky and John Curtsy as this would be a nice collection of high tech cars.............. speaking of high tech cars,.....................
Even in 1934-1937 there were cars that had 520 HP on tap at aprox 3000 RPM and that out of 5/6 ltr capacity so what has happened since then ? 65 years on! 5ltr and struggeling to get the same hp but with a double amount of revs. :rolleyes:

[Nick Short]

From my viewpoint of several thousand miles away, I can see that the V8 Supercars appeal for the same reason that most 1970s Bathurst cars appealed - they're locally-built and resemble those in the showrooms. And any race series is designed for a specific purpose - you can either have it open to all, or restricted to certain categories, and here the categories are Aussie-built V8 silhouette cars, fair enough. You certainly don't want to make up the numbers with smaller cars - they tried that at Le Mans in the early 90s, with 2 litre Peugeot open cars that were almost 100mph slower than the top cars on the straight! Clearly there could be room for foreign manufacturers in V8s but it would restrict the numbers of home-grown teams on the grid, and might well result in better-funded foreign teams going all-out and dominating the series to the detriment of the spectacle and local appeal. Here in the UK we have British GT racing, with most of the tiny specialist sports car teams (TVR, Marcos, Lotus, Ultima, Stealth, Lister etc) producing awesome track cars. Unfortunately this last year Saleen have brought over 2 cars and really thrown money at the series, dominating things despite additional ballast in the cars. Oh well, I guess people will say that the others should raise their game......

[Aussiecollector]

A couple of years ago there was a sale of all the Nissan Race cars from the Gibson collection including the turbo bluebird, and at least one of the GTR's about 8 cars all up I think. Not sure of the sales though, whether they all sold or whether Fred still has some.

Thats another classic car that would make a great model, the quirky Nissan Bluebird.

I also wonder if Biante thought of doing the GTR in the Team Nissan Colours, seeing as the car has been released in other liveries, it would'nt be too hard to release it with a different paint job would it.

Glenn

[Andrew]

"Just how many Aussies can afford or even find a Twin Turbo 4 wheel drive compared to the number who can afford a V8 Holden or F." - VRSS

Well VRSS, I would argue, 'not many', as your line of questioning is obviously heading down this path. But let me ask you, what sort of price range did the VT II GTS 300 Commodore sell for? And what of the current HSV Coupe? We are into the $90,000+ price range here - for a Commodore! The R32 GT-R retailed here in Australia in 1991-2 for a hefty $110,000. Admittedly, that is an expensive piece of kit, but you got race-car (and track proven) technology for that price. 100 examples were imported by Nissan Australia. They were not a sales success, probably because of the price. Now, GT-R's are rather more common on the Australian second-hand import market, with many now being sold for less than $40,000 Australian dollars. A relative performance bargain, considering the immense performance and pedigree of the car. So, the cost of owning a GT-R (or EVO Lancer, or STi or any other turbo four-wheel drive), is less prohibitve than it once was. I would argue less prohibitive than the new products from HSV. If Australians couldn't afford $110,000 for a new GT-R, what makes you think they would be able to afford $90,000 for a new V8 Commodore? If you are talking of much older V8 Holdens and Fords, then that is an entirely different matter... But you are also talking about cars that are inferior in performance to the GT-R too.
I'm sorry for any offence caused, that is not my intention, but blinding parochialism does not strike a chord with me.

"They [Australian crowds] don't want to watch something that is not part of the Australian street scene." - VRSS

I assume you mean V8 Fords and Holdens here? I would beg to differ. If that is the case, then how do motorsport events like the Nations Cup (Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, Viper, Mustang) draw the crowds they do? How does the Australian Rally Championship draw the crowds it does into the forests if people don't "want to watch something that is not part of the Australian street scene"? I think Magnas and Camrys (shock, horror) should race in our 'premier motorsport category' if the 'Australian street scene' is strictly adhered to. Who knows, we may see the emergence of the humble Camry as a genuine performance machine... And to take that one step further, why not race the cars that Australians really drive - the humble Commodore Executive and Falcon Forte (or whatever the base poverty-pack is)? The 6 cylinder cars are more representative of the Australian market/scene than the V8. How many cars do you see 'doing the block' on a Friday/Saturday night with the standard 6 cyl, big exhaust, and a set of mags ? (usually with a couple of panels in primer).

"[W]hatever happened to there having to be 500 units registered on the roads before they could be used at Bathurst? Lucky to be a handful of "Godzillas" in the country." - VRSS

As I stated above, there were 100 official examples brought into Australia by Nissan. They were sold through specialist Nissan dealerships. There has since been a 'flood' of Japanese import 'Godzillas', and they are now relatively common (in R32, R33 and R34 guise). Not as common as a Holden V8 however...
I cannot respond to your question regarding the rules stipulating the number of a particular vehicle that had to be registered on the road - I do not know. If anyone can tell me, it would be appreciated. How many VN Group A Commodores were built?

I don't want this to turn into a s*#t fight - that, I assure you, is not my intention. But a little bit of balance would be appreciated. I enjoy the sound of a hard-revving V8, but not exclusively at the expense of the roar of a twin-turbo straight six. Fans of both should be catered for. Of course, that is not likely to happen with the unprecedented level of support that V8 Supercar racing currently has in Australia, New Zealand and other parts of the world. And that suport is well deserved, because the category has been marketed well, is professional, and close. But to me, it is also a 'one-make' series, because the similarities between the Fords and Holdens is a little too close to swallow.

In response to another post, I believe the '92 Bathurst winning GT-R is now either in Lindsay Fox's private car collection, or being displayed at the Bathurst Motor Museum. There was a recent article in the performance magazine 'Zoom' about the Gibson Motorsport Godzillas, and current photos of the car (either Car #1 or #2) at the Mt. Panorama circuit (unfortunately the cigarette advertising had to be airbrushed out of the photos - is nothing sacred?)

I would like to see the '91 Bathurst Winning GT-R modelled in its red, white and Blue Nissan colours. It would sit well next to the '92 Bathurst winner already released, and bypass the tobacco advertising controversy with it. How about it Biante...

[Delta Farce]

Andrew you make some excellent points in your post. The Oz car scene is changing immesureably. People are picking up the Jap import cars and turning out some nice streeters. There are too some nice Falcadors out there, but as you say the majority of them are just crap sixes with mags.

Touring car racing in Oz needs to develop beyond the two make series it is now. Hopefully Mitsubishi will develop a Magna V8 to compete in the future, but at the moment the series lacks the genuine competitivenes and interest offered by a series like the Nations Cup. Who cares if Holden or Ford win? What happens if Mitsubishi win? Will Holden and Ford throw another hissy fit and force a rule change to expell Mitsubishi? As it is the series is safe for both manufacturers, they're essentially the same car and there's no need to spend money on technological development as they would have had to if they were to catch Nissan.

Keep our premier race to cars bred and built here. I'd even agree to the smaller engine classes returning but there are enough cars on the mountain as it is and the slower, small capacity cars would just cause accidents and stop us seeing what the real grunters can get up to.

I thought that the ever since the VT the Commodore is designed completely overseas. The engine is from Chev for sure. So how can we do this? The AU Falcon was designed in Oz I think, but the engine probably wasn't. The only difference between Falcon/Commodore and Nissan is that they aren't assembled in Australia.

Going back to the original discussion in this thread though, Nissan shouldn't have won Bathurst. You crash you lose, the international rules didn't do justice in this instance. I know that rule are rules but no one can watch that race and say that it was fair that Nissan won, and surely the rules are there to make the sport fair.

[VRSS]

"Well VRSS, I would argue, 'not many', as your line of questioning is obviously heading down this path. But let me ask you, what sort of price range did the VT II GTS 300 Commodore sell for? And what of the current HSV Coupe? We are into the $90,000+ price range here - for a Commodore!"

We aren't talking about people going out to HSVs and the like. I'm talking the about the bloke down the road with his V8 Exec or SS who would love to get their car all tricked up and sounding hot (usually hotter than it actually is). HRT don't go out and convert HSVs for the race track. They get a base shell and work on it from there. There's many average bloke who love to do the same except they would start with a complete road car.

"The R32 GT-R retailed here in Australia in 1991-2 for a hefty $110,000. Admittedly, that is an expensive piece of kit, but you got race-car (and track proven) technology for that price."

I always thought that the Holden vs F... competition was about what local teams can do. Yes, they may import some forms of technology, but being able to put that technology to use in Australian built cars can be the difference between winning or being a F... driver.

"100 examples were imported by Nissan Australia. They were not a sales success, probably because of the price."

May have been the fact that they were very thirsty too.

"So, the cost of owning a GT-R (or EVO Lancer, or STi or any other turbo four-wheel drive), is less prohibitve than it once was. I would argue less prohibitive than the new products from HSV.
If Australians couldn't afford $110,000 for a new GT-R, what makes you think they would be able to afford $90,000 for a new V8 Commodore? "

I think you are missing an important point here. Yes, a lot of people, myself included, would love to buy a HSV but even more want to work on their own cars. Instead of buying performance, they show their pride in what they have created themselves.

"If you are talking of much older V8 Holdens and Fords, then that is an entirely different matter... But you are also talking about cars that are inferior in performance to the GT-R too."

Of course they are inferior to a car which was designed as a hign performance race car from the time it hit the drawing board. These are cars originally designed as the family car. Sedans which were, and are, everyday transport vehicles.

"I'm sorry for any offence caused, that is not my intention, but blinding parochialism does not strike a chord with me."

None taken.

"They [Australian crowds] don't want to watch something that is not part of the Australian street scene." - VRSS
I assume you mean V8 Fords and Holdens here? I would beg to differ. If that is the case, then how do motorsport events like the Nations Cup (Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, Viper, Mustang) draw the crowds they do? How does the Australian Rally Championship draw the crowds it does into the forests if people don't "want to watch something that is not part of the Australian street scene"?

Sure they get a good crowd. But if there is ANY racing happening at a track, then you will get a crowd. Petrol heads will gather wherever the engines rev. Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini are all classic race breeds. The Vipers, Trans Ams and Mustangs are classic American muscle cars. The WRXs and the like have been gaining in popularity as a lot of four cylinder drivers see these cars as being closer to what they drive in size and capacity. There's also a lot of spectacular driving in the rally comps.

"I think Magnas and Camrys (shock, horror) should race in our 'premier motorsport category' if the 'Australian street scene' is strictly adhered to. Who knows, we may see the emergence of the humble Camry as a genuine performance machine..."

In a different class? Sure.

"And to take that one step further, why not race the cars that Australians really drive - the humble Commodore Executive and Falcon Forte (or whatever the base poverty-pack is)? The 6 cylinder cars are more representative of the Australian market/scene than the V8."

Have a good look at some of the supporting races. The sixes are there.

"How many cars do you see 'doing the block' on a Friday/Saturday night with the standard 6 cyl, big exhaust, and a set of mags ? (usually with a couple of panels in primer)."

Many work to get whatever power they can from what they have or can afford. Sure some of the "hoons" simply stick on a large diameter exhaust to get some note from their car, but how many others have many hours in the back yard shed working on their pride and joy getting the mechanicals working and saving to get the exterior fixed.

"[W]hatever happened to there having to be 500 units registered on the roads before they could be used at Bathurst? Lucky to be a handful of "Godzillas" in the country." - VRSS
As I stated above, there were 100 official examples brought into Australia by Nissan. They were sold through specialist Nissan dealerships. There has since been a 'flood' of Japanese import 'Godzillas', and they are now relatively common (in R32, R33 and R34 guise). Not as common as a Holden V8 however...
I cannot respond to your question regarding the rules stipulating the number of a particular vehicle that had to be registered on the road - I do not know. If anyone can tell me, it would be appreciated. How many VN Group A Commodores were built?"

I don't know how many, but I think the rules had changed before they came out.

"I don't want this to turn into a s*#t fight - that, I assure you, is not my intention. But a little bit of balance would be appreciated. I enjoy the sound of a hard-revving V8, but not exclusively at the expense of the roar of a twin-turbo straight six. Fans of both should be catered for."

There's a big difference between a s*#t fight and a discussion. Let them race, in their own classes.

"Of course, that is not likely to happen with the unprecedented level of support that V8 Supercar racing currently has in Australia, New Zealand and other parts of the world. And that suport is well deserved, because the category has been marketed well, is professional, and close. But to me, it is also a 'one-make' series, because the similarities between the Fords and Holdens is a little too close to swallow."


Unless they read every little technical peice on the different teams, the general public don't know just how close they are. It's a tradition to back one or the other on race days. The main difference these days is the financial backing and drivers, not the car so much.

"In response to another post, I believe the '92 Bathurst winning GT-R is now either in Lindsay Fox's private car collection, or being displayed at the Bathurst Motor Museum."

I believe that most of his collection is kept "on loan" at a Motoring Museum in Melbourne.

"There was a recent article in the performance magazine 'Zoom' about the Gibson Motorsport Godzillas, and current photos of the car (either Car #1 or #2) at the Mt. Panorama circuit (unfortunately the cigarette advertising had to be airbrushed out of the photos - is nothing sacred?)"

Would have thought that historical value would have left the livery untouched.

(getting off my soap box now LOL)

[MkTT500]

Answering my own question...
The '92 Nissan is still in Aus. The day after I posted my question I had Auto Action magazine shoved under my nose with an article on Terry Ashwoods Datsun collection (including the 92 GTR).
Seems that the GTR has just finished a stint at the Bathurst Museum as well...

[ET351]

Other Nismo's

Further to MkTT500's interest in the Nissan's, I saw Terry Ashwood racing the 'older' Nissan Skyline at a Historics meet (Oran Pk Jan 2002).

It carried red, white and blue livery, and was numbered '33'. Perhaps someone out there can enlighten me to the history of this car? I assume it was one of the Gibson team, but I'm not sure which driver(s). I think it was replaced in the last round of the TCC by the 'Godzilla' Skyline, which debuted at Oran Park in 199??

Any experts let me know!!

Cheers, ET

[brock rules]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by drof
Hi Nick, One point I will get clear from the start is Jim Richards is NOT an Aussie but a New Zealander, a "Kiwi"!! He is just another that those Aussies would like to call their own but is not. As you are coming to terms with the Ford vs Holden debate, it is exactly the same as with Kiwis vs Aussies. Take for instance myself I am a Ford Fan, a True blue diehard but I still get behind Greg Murphy because he is a Kiwi, at the Pukekohe round last year when it was evident to us Ford fans that a Ford was'nt going to win I turned myself into a Greg Murphy Fan, yelling and screaming ontop of Ford Mountain with alot of other devot Blue Oval Religious people. The reason you may ask well it's simple Greg is a Kiwi and he bet all those other Aussie racers on his Home Track, Great stuff to watch!!
Just to move off the subject for the while but....
A memory of that day even though it involved violence, and a drunk , and I don't believe in violence.It was when the drivers were having their pre-race drive in the back of convertables that a certain self proclaimed Holden Priest started slagging off at Craig Lowndes calling him every name under the sun,swearing, yelling, foul mouth and the rest of the carry on,after at least 3-5 minutes of this and numerous calls for him to shut up from both Ford and Holden supporters(there was alot of kids around) that a 50 something year old that was sitting directly in front of him with a Craig lowndes shirt on and waving a 00 Motorsport flag had, had enough and turned around and planted him one right on the Kisser, good night nurse. The reason that this is a memory for me is that the guy was a Holden supporter but changed to the Blue Oval when Craig defected, this guy was'nt drinking beer he was there with his family just enjoying the day. The Drunk guy must of been Australian because he was drinking VB!!Ha Ha!!
Hopefully now Nick what you might see is the great New Zealand Australia rivalry emerge in this thread, you will probably get those Aussies claiming such things as Pavlova,Russell Crowe, Crowded House,Jandels etc etc but Nick these are all New Zealand Exports.
Looking forward to all those Aussie excuses, oh and by the way Nick have you noticed on these Threads who are constantly moaning and whinging and whining about every litytle detail, you got it Aussies!!

Regards

Dave from Kiwiland!!

ps Who won the 1st Bledislode encounter? [/QUOTE

Dave the reason us aussies whing about every little detail as you put it is simple we dont except second best unlike kiwis.

regards daryl from aussie land.

ps who won the last bledislode cup

[Andrew]

ET351 - I think Godzilla debuted at Oran Park in 1990, and it took a dominant win. Mark Skaife was still driving the HR31 Skyline, while Jim Richards (who was fighting for the championship) got Godzilla. I have a bit of that race on video, and it was a walkover if I recall. An ominous warning for the next two years...

VRSS - I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I would like to see Magnas and Camrys (and GT-R's!!! he he) in the premier tin-top category among the V8 Commodores and Falcons, not in their own class. That would certainly pique my interest. I can't wait for the Bathurst 24hr this year where all sorts of makes will be racing - and not just V8's! I better get down off my soapbox now too... (he he)

So, do I gauge with everybody that Godzilla is not that popular then, even though its dominance ended a decade ago?

(Funny how a thread talking about Poms and whinging Aussies Vs Kiwis gets twisted around isn't it?)

[Delta Farce]

Dave from Kiwiland you're a strange one aren't you. You mock us Aussies about Bledisloe Cups? Lets talk about Rugby then. Oz has held the cup for how many years now, and the Tri-Nations, and we're also the most successful World Cup nation with two wins (soon to be three). We're also the ONLY nation ever to win a World Cup on foreign soil, doing so twice in England and Wales. Australia is a super power in the world of rugby, New Zealand used to be good - before you attack us try and beat France ok.

Apart from that I don't have much to say except that Australia's premier racing category needs to be opened up. Get those Japanese cars in there with the Holdens and Fords. The Australian series should aim to be the worlds premier big horse power touring car series. The Japanese series runs with cars that have 500 horsepower (GTR's, NSX's, McLaren F1's). The Aussie series could open itself up to these cars too. Perhaps allow turbo sixes and normally aspirated eights (with a blanket horsepower and weight limit) but only allow two wheel drive. What does everyone else think? So far the debate in this thread has been about Oz V8's and Japanese Turbo 4WD's, but maybe there is some middle ground.