Monaro or Commodore

[drof]

Im just wondering if all you Holden People out there could tell me if the new Monaro is a "True" Monaro or a Commodore Hybrid Coupe?
The reason I ask is because all the old Monaro's were just that, not an existing sedan model made into a coupe, but a stand alone model.
What are your opinions!!

Regards

Dave from Kiwiland!!

[paranoid]

The new Monaro is a very nice looking car, however, maybe it's sacrelidge to call it the new monaro, as it is really a two door commodore...

that said, I read in road patrol earlier this year that the HQ Monaro GTS 4-door was "inspired by a special limited edition SS sedan based on the entry level Belmont". I dunno how accurate this is but yeah...

Still, most cars are bits and peices of other styling anyway, isn't the commodore based on the German Opel anyway?

[V8SS]

I don't dare call myself an expert on Monaros but weren't the old ones more a 2 door version of the Kingswood than the new Monaro a 2 door version of the Commodore? Why I say that is that the old Monaros still shared the Kingswoods front and rear taillights and dash but minus 2 doors obviously.
The new Monaro has its own grille, headlights and tail lights but there is no denying that it is influenced by the Commodore.
Obviously the marketing had a lot to do with the use of the name Monaro instead of simply Commodore Coupe.
I find I like them more the more I see them and prefer the standard shape to the HSV versions. Devil yellow has to be the best colour.

[drof]

I'm talking about the very first Monaro, HG or something like that, (I'm a Ford Man, not to clued up on early Holden models), I know that there was a HQ Monaro based on the sedan, but I'm talking about the very First Monaro's. Were they a by-product of the sedan around at the time or a new model all of their own?

Regards

Dave from Kiwiland!!

[Dazz]

The first Monaro's were also just a 2-door version of the humble sedan. Hence the 186 powered 2-speed powerglide auto equipped Monaro!

[Aussiecollector]

Paranoid,

I believe you are correct, when I was a Kid we had the Belmont and the SS. Mum only ever got to drive the slush box belmont.

Glenn

[Highlander]

Hard to work out if having two doors makes a Sedan a coupe?

The Old Monaros being Pillarless were real coupes,and with front and back windows wound down ,they looked great.

The new Monaro is a Fantastic looking 2 door Sedan

[perry]

The new monaro has more unique parts (compared to the equivilant sedan) than any monaro before it.

Monaro was originally just a name for the two door version of the kinswood, and could be optioned as a GTS or GTS 327/350 as well.

As the HQ series was introduced, a new model called LS was added, which was essentually a coupe version of the Premier.

The SS was built on the Belmont platform. Of course, the belmont was the 'cut down' version of the kingswood. All SS's had 253's. It was never a Monaro though (by name).

Due to the popularity of the SS, the GTS/4 door was released, which sold more than the coupe versions.

The plain monaro was dropped with the HJ, leaving Monaro LS, Monaro GTS, Monaro GTS/4. The GTS/4 out sold the coupe by around 20 to 1 (without getting my figures out, this is close enough.). From memory, there were only 280 Monaro coupes (HJ) built.

HX was left with the GTS/4 Monaro. The HX LE was 'invented' to use the remaining 580-600 coupe shells.

HZ GTS saw the name Monaro dropped. It was just called GTS now. No coupe available.

So, lets look at the new V2 Monaro...
It a higher spec than an 'executive', in fact its based on Calias layout (features, not body shape..). So, that would make it simular to an LS.
The GTS had flutes, special dash, stripes, etc. The GTS was no more high performance than the equivilent sedan engines (except HKTG of course for the 327/350 range, of which there was no equivilent).

[VRSS]

"The SS was built on the Belmont platform. Of course, the belmont was the 'cut down' version of the kingswood. All SS's had 253's."

Sorry Perry, have to disagree here. My cousin has a HQ SS which he rebuilt to specs and it has a 350.

"The HX LE was 'invented' to use the remaining 580-600 coupe shells."

The LE came out in that funny maroon/red with the gold features the Premier front and those ugly gold coloured honey comb mags. The "LE" was easy to see on the rear of the boot as it was in scripted letters.

"HZ GTS saw the name Monaro dropped. It was just called GTS now. No coupe available."

I can still remember the double-page magazine adds showing the white HZ GTS with full spoke wheels. Looked great.

I think what people have to remember is that a car company will produce cars which can be produced using panels and parts that are used in common with other models. This would save tooling up costs and make parts more easily available.

Yes the HK, HT and HG shared many parts and panels of the Kingswood/Belmont range as did the HQ and up. If they had to have totally different panels and parts we may not have seen them at all due to the costs of production.

[v8coupe]

Originally posted by V8SS
I find I like them more the more I see them and prefer the standard shape to the HSV versions. Devil yellow has to be the best colour.

I think the GTS looks the best of them all and in yellow.
I saw a standard Yellow CV8 or CV6, at a car show, with all the badges removed , had GTS wheels and was lowered. Looked very nice. I would love to have either, or better still both.

[perry]

VRSS, the HQ SS was not available with a 350, 327, 308 or anything but a 253.

If you can get hold of your cousins VIN/Body/Chassis numbers, and submit them to the Monaro Register, they would be most appreciative. register@monaro.com.au
(read about the Monaro Register on my website)

The following is a very cut down version of an article going onto my website www.monaro.com.au in the near future. It was created with the assistance of the Monaro Register:


The HQ SS started out being a Holden Executive's (John Bagshaw actually) personal "custom HQ Sedan". It was based on the Premier.
It was fitted with an ugly looking flat backed spoiler with flutes in it, SS grill emblem, silver polycast wheels (same as the gold LE rims), leather (yes leather!) trim, air con, electric windows, headrests all round, etc etc.

It was noticed by one or two Motoring Magazines (i have these somewhere, and can possibly scann the articles). Of course, once they got hold of the car, they went "ss" crazy...

Move on to August 1972, at the Sydney motor show, and John Bagshaw's SS was on display.
The public went crazy over the idea of a "sporty" sedan.

Soon after, Holden started producing the SS, but started with a Belmont base, and added the extras from there. They made 1600 for starters, and all sold out almost imediately. The first batch was released late Aug 1972.

The first run featured 253, 4spd, 3.36:1 diff, dual exhaust, carpet (HQ belmont's had rubber floor coverings as standard), tacho, black vinyl interior with houndstooth inserts (seats had extra padding too), GTS fenders and steering wheel (with SS insert), stainless steel window mouldings, console, GTS sway bar, SS decals, black decal strips on boot and bonnet/fenders, grill (different colour), blacked out headlight bezels, radial tyres, and of course, the legendary three unique colours: Lettuce Alone, Infra Red and Ultra Violet. The grill badge was simply a standard holden badge, and not an SS badge as per "John's" special.

A further 1200 were made, with slightly different specs (mainly interior (Flax Rado instead of Houndstooth). The second run had painted stripes, not decals. The second release was in Nov 1972.

A service letter was sent to all dealer informing them that "no options were deemed neccesary, and no factory fitted options were allowed". EG: no 308 or 350, aircon, etc. However, there was actually one factory fitted option available (although the service letter stated different) and that was "Front Arm Rests" (code D14). Dealers could fit any 'dealer added accessories' they liked.

If you started with a belmont sedan, and optioned it to the exact specs, it worked out considerably more expensive, which made the SS appear to be a bargain (and it was too).

The option code when ordering the SS was XV2.

The SS paved the way for the Four Door GTS.

[VRSS]

Perry,

Remember that the HQs came out in '72, '73 and '74. You covered the first couple of releases.

This SS is Gold with the white on the bonnet and boot (if my memory serves me right. I haven't seen it for a couple of years).

He is a mechanical engineer who is a perfectionist. He would not have rebuilt it to what it is if it were not original specs.

By the way, I think I was wrong about the LE in my last post. The LE had the HQ sedan tail lights in the rear. I do recall the HJ Premier front on them so they must have been early HJ using some HQ parts. Goes along with using up the LS bodies in the HJ series.

[perry]

VRSS, the SS was a very limited run of 2800 vehicles (1600 + 1200), manufactured from august 72 to jan 73. They were not available for the entire model run of the HQ. There were only three colours available: Infra Red, Lettuce Alone, and Ultra Violet.

I ask you to provide information that disputes my claims. If you cousin owns a 350ci SS in Gold with white stripes, it would be worth $100,000, as it would be the one of the rarest holden ever built, bar none. Why the Rarest?? Because official special notices were sent out specifically stating the car could not be factory optioned up, as you claim your cousins is.

The easiest way to prove who is correct (me), and who isnt (your cousin), is to provide the numbers from the BODY/VIN/CHASSIS. Your cousin will be more than happy to provide those over the phone for you.

Check out Cami's webpage: http://www.geocities.com/camihqss/
It has all the original (and prototype) articles, adverts, etc, including the official holden notice stating the vehicle is only available with a 253.

Cami and i were both senior judges at the last two Monaro Nations, so, your arguing with an expert on the subject.

Sorry, i get very upset when people claim something in regards to Monaros that is clearly wrong. Unfortunately this is due to the many publications out there that blatantly print incorrect info. Case point: "Spotlight On Monaro" by Tony Davis has 288 factual mistakes in the first 29 pages. It was planned to be 'rewritten' a few years ago, but the publishers decided it was going to cost too much... so, the general public simply 'believe' what they are told.

[Highlander]

Hi Perry

Years ago i read an article in a Car magazine about a HQ Monaro 2 Door Codenamed OLD Man EMU, a prototype with 350 chev and some interesting Body ducting,did they ever build it?

It was a Factory Holden Prototype with the slogan OLD Man Emu runs the pants off the Super Roo

Regards David

[perry]

Old Man Emu is shrouded in mystery. It was actually a clay vehicle, and never made it to production, or prototype.

"He cant fly, but im telling you, he can run the pants of a super roo..."

Street Machine magazine, featured some time back, a photo of the 350/Z prototype (yellowish coupe, mid 73 photo from memory, it appeared that the car was in a lot with hundreds of new cars) with a piece of the spoiler missing. They claimed it was "Old Man Emu", but it wasn't. This would have been the car you remember. Just another example of incorrect facts becoming gospel :-(

I have some more shots of the 350/Z prototype (official photos too), but they are in a pile of things to be catalogued and sorted.

The 350/Z had an unusual front spoiler, no front bumper, different side flutes, bonnet flutes, and a "350/Z" decal on the rear quarter panel, below the body styling line, behind the rear wheel. It looked like someone had spent up big at the local K-Mart auto accessories section (no disrespect to KMart...).

The 350/Z was also used in a advert featuring the slogan "We dont just build cars, we live them". It had a driver (in full race clothing) and a technician (in standard lab suit) discussing something whilst standing behind the car. From memory (dont count on this bit of info) it was fitted with the honeycombe rims, later fitted to the LE (and an option from HJ-HZ, although silver in colour). Also, i think the car was fitted with the "Dual Sports" (SLR style) mirrors, which didnt get officially fitted to Monaros until the HX.

As with a lot of prototypes back in those days, it was most likely converted back to the standard specs (although examples of prototypes have been found un touched), and sold off to the public. There is at least one example of a twin turbo 308 HX or HZ out there (in run down, but ready to restore).

So, the answer is no, they never built the "Old Man Emu".

[Highlander]

Thanks Perry thats the one i was thinking of.

[paranoid]

thanks for the info perry, thats absolutely fascinating!!!
now, just need to find a HZ to swap for my torana....:)

[perry]

No worries fellas, when it comes to Monaros, i can crap on for days...

[Highlander]

Perry do you no what became of Phill Wards Super Sports Monaro? and do you have any pictures of it.

Cheers David

[perry]

Highlander, i dont have any pictures that i can think of, but give me a few days and i'll see what i can come up with.

[Graeme]

I was just scrolling through the old posts and have been thoroughly entertained by the jousting match between Perry and VRSS ( Bob ).

I hope Bob's cousin didn't pay too much for his 350 converted Kingswood, as that's probably what he got for his money.

I was an apprentice to Perth's biggest Holden dealer in the mid to late 70's and got to play with many latter-day collectables.

And, I actually recall seeing the 350Z on the Holden stand at the Perth Motor Show around 1973/74. Back then, Ford, Holden and Chrysler always did a show special each year, and it's good to see a revival of specials in recent years.

Perry, this one is for you :

Being such a Monaro-head, do you remember the real TV star of "Matlock Police" ??

[perry]

Hi Greame, sorry to say this, but im not old enough to remember black and white TV, or 70's police shows!! :-)

You dont happen to have any "interesting" photos from old car shows like the one you mentioned??

[Graeme]

Sorry Perry, I didn't bother having a camera back in the seventies, so now I'm left with only hazy memories.

I assume you'd like to get hold of Monaro period photos, other than what you'd find in old magazines ?

For anyone who is old enough, the TV show Matlock Police was the Blue Heelers of the early seventies and starred Michael Pate, Grigor Taylor and Paul Cronin, the latter who will be better remembered from The Sullivans. It also starred an HG MONARO
( not a GTS ) in almost every episode as the local country pursuit car.

Are there many other famous TV or movie Monaros ?

[ducksguts]

I cant think of too many movies with monaros, only ones that spring to mind are :

Running on empty
Madmax
Big Steal

But then im usually looking for Falcons ;)

[Glen Alexander]

Personally, I think the original Monaro looks like a two door Kingswood. I would rather drive a brand new CV8 than a two door Kingswood. Don't get me wrong, the original Monaro is a nice looking car, but up against the new one, what are you going to prefer to drive. Two door Kingswood, or two door Commodore?

Glen

[perry]

Umm, yeah, ok Glen...

It looks like a two door Kingswood, because thats what it was.
The current Monaro looks like a two door commodore. Oh, guess what, it is!!

I would also love to own a CV8, but you cant compare current technology, with 34 year old engineering.

I bet you'd also prefer an SS ute over a 'Horse and cart' wouldn't ya??

But, for all the attention the new monaros get, its nothing compared to the attention the old classic recieve when your out on the road.

As for which one id prefer to drive:
A CV8 for daily duties, and a classic for the weekends. Simple really.

[Glen Alexander]

I know the Monaro is a two door Kingswood, it's just the way some people on this thread have put it, making out the old Monaro isn't just that. I guess I'm that way inclined because I wasn't born when they released the old Monaro, and I am guessing you were around for them when they were. It is like my girlfriend's Dad, he loves the old cars and would prefer to own one of them.

And to the Horse and Cart comment, if it was a REALLY fast horse and cart I'd give it a go!!!!! Does it come with IRS, ABS, EFI, LSD, and do you have optional leather interior!!! Is the SS Ute Delft Blue???

And for the attention out on the road, it depends on what generation you're from.

You know what would make a nice car. I don't know if a lot of people agree with retro-fitting, but an HK Monaro with CV8 running gear, interior, suspension etc. Maybe in Hothouse Green or any of the colours for that matter.

Didn't mean to pinch a nerve with the comments.:( :D

[VRSS]

I'm sure someone will fill a HK Monaro with CV8 running gear and interior one day.

As long as they fix a problem that the original Monaro had. The "rust-attracting" panel below the rear quarter windows. I'm sure Perry has seen quite a few with that cancer.

[perry]

CV8 running gear in a HK, hmmm, love that!

Im trying to get a guy interested in letting me feature his HK on my website (www.monaro.com.au).

He has retro fitted VN SS engine, diff, gearbox, and front suspension (yes, struts!). The interior is all custom, following on the SS theme with moulded door trims, and the VN dash.
Lastly, new V2 HSV GTO rims finish it off.

And, as for the comments about rusty panels... not much we can do about that, especially when they seemed to have almost 'factory fitted' the rust....

[V8SS]

Hey Perry
Don't worry about getting permission. Just get round there with your digital camera and slap it on your website!!!!!!
Sounds very interesting especially as I own a VN SS.

[VRSS]

Perry,

How did he get the HSV GTO rims?

I have been under the impression that you had to own a HSV, or wait for one to come to a wreckers, to get HSV accessories, wheels etc.

I tried, a few years back now, to get VR clubsport rims to put on my SS but was told I needed to be registered with HSV as an owner.

[perry]

Holden dealer policy (well, last time i checked anyway) was that you couldnt purchase HSV rims, until that particular model was replaced. Eg: you shouldnt be able to purchase the current rims.

But, this guy has them, ive seen the pictures.
If you know your dealer well enough, they'll let it slip through i suppose. I have been asked for build numbers, and VIN numbers when buying HSV parts, so i just look up those details on a vehicle on the showroom floor...

[pdg666]

Hi Guys,
I'm quoting from the Holden in Australia Magazine here.

Holden Monaro CV8

"From the A pillar rearward the Monaro body structure was unique to the model and featured 84 major new body panels. The windscreen rake was increased by two degrees for a sleeker look and better air penetration. The Monaro has impressively low aerodynamic drag coefficient for just 0.31. The B pillar was relocated rearward to accomodate doors that were 150mm longer than Commodore doors. The roof was lowered 40mm and rear overhang reduced by 100mm."

Just a summary
Oh by the way replying to the first thread

Cheers
Paul

[drof]

Thanks pdg666, someone has finally answered my question, in summary the Monaro is more Monaro than Commodore and the older Models were more of a hybrid of their current model eg, HQ Monaro was more of a Kingswood than Monaro.

Thanks

Dave from Kiwiland!!